Re: Ian Lenagan.

[cpwigan]

Not really Dave. Squads have to be balanced. Our squad contains more than enough props. It is just that most people feel the experienced big name highly paid props do not do the job they are paid to do which is either down to them and/or the coaching/conditioning staff.

You are then left with a choice do you stay with what you have, do you try to add another prop with a limited budget or do you wait for another season when your props contracts expire and you have more to spend to sign a top drawer prop forward.

The positive has been the form / development of Prescott. I think it is unrealistic for Wigan to retain Prescott/O'Carroll/Davies and Mossop long term so give them all an opportunity in 2010 and decide who you are prepared to let go and who you want to keep.

Burgess is going to Souths in 2011. They have also signed Dave Taylor. So it is possible Asotasi will become available. I do think there are many quality props in Australia. Carl Webb played very well in the last round of the NRL.

Maybe a new coaching staff can revitalise the careers of our props. Big if I acknowledge.

It's very easy to say sign another player for a position but it will not happen IMO. As an example I would love for Tommy to play hooker but with Pig and MCIlorum it is not going to happen.

[DaveO]

i admit we do need another prop, but if we sign another without releasing one it leaves another position short of a player. who do we release to sign another prop? o`carroll, prescott, or ben davies?

How about a certain Mr Hock?

Dave

[DaveO]

Not really Dave. Squads have to be balanced. Our squad contains more than enough props.

Clearly we are one short. The fixation on the number of props has meant we have not signed the prop we need and the pack is weaker than those of the best sides.

If we had five half backs and they were all rubbish we would to sign a new one. I exaggerate to make the point but the point is we have had ample opportunity to free up cash in particular Hocks wages to spend on a player. I believe that player should be a prop and the fact there are already five at the club should make no odds. IL has been looking for one anyway but has decided against it. He clearly must have changed his mind we had enough props to go off looking for one in the fist place.

In a season's time Fielden and Feka's contracts are up but if we wait until then, that is another season with an inferior pack.

It is just that most people feel the experienced big name highly paid props do not do the job they are paid to do which is either down to them and/or the coaching/conditioning staff.

Correct and this is clearly not going to get corrected or it would have been by now. One of them needs to be dropped for the new prop.

You are then left with a choice do you stay with what you have, do you try to add another prop with a limited budget or do you wait for another season when your props contracts expire and you have more to spend to sign a top drawer prop forward.

The reason we have a limited budget is because IL has screwed up the recruitment. We should have got the prop we need and worked from there.

The positive has been the form / development of Prescott. I think it is unrealistic for Wigan to retain Prescott/O'Carroll/Davies and Mossop long term so give them all an opportunity in 2010 and decide who you are prepared to let go and who you want to keep.

Mossop is not a prop and Davies is not ready for the 1st team as far as I know. Therefore a new prop for 2010 would not be treading on the toes of the younger players such as Davies because come 2011 when he might be ready Fielden will have gone.

Maybe a new coaching staff can revitalise the careers of our props. Big if I acknowledge.

It's very easy to say sign another player for a position but it will not happen IMO. As an example I would love for Tommy to play hooker but with Pig and MCIlorum it is not going to happen.

That is not going to happen because if we did that we would be a no 7 short never mind the fact Piggy gets picked regardless. There is no such positional problem with the props. It would basically be Fielden dropped, new prop in.

It's also very easy because there have been players available we could have signed and as far as I can see there was no logic not doing so. As I said above IL went looking for a prop but he has failed to delvier one (so far).

Dave

[cpwigan]

Here is the paradox Dave you are saying lets sign another prop which would give us 8 props (New Prop, Fielden, Feka, Coley, Prescott, O'Carroll, Davies, Mossop). 9 if you wanted to throw in Holland from the reserves.

Yet you then acknowledge we will not play Tommy at 9 because we have 2 hookers and will not run with 3 first team hookers. Largely because as you say we are so short at half back. We have lost Smith which leaves us with Sam and Tommy. What happens if one breaks their leg/tears ligaments. As it stands the squad is not balanced and that is how those in power look at their squad.

Mossop played prop for Huddersfield, Wigan RLFC perceive him as a prop. If some fans don't then so be it but many fans are obsessed with size far too much.

Davies. Personally this player has something for me. He has skill but mongrel too. It is very rare to find both in a player. McDermott rates him highly. I don't care if Rogues does not think he's big enough. If you listen to Rogues making excuses for everything Wigan RLFC do, no young player will ever get a game.

Fans are becoming as conservative as our coach IMO when it comes to playing young player. Let Prescott / O'Carroll / Mossop / Davies fight it out. The fire and enthusiasm that internal competition could take Wigan forward considerably.

Remember the squad is not static in terms of playetr development. Those players are going to get better and better. Imagine the impact of a new coach / better conditioner. Brown has improved Crabtree.

End of 2010 we can sign a top prop. Start of 2010 with minimal spend we could buy another make do prop. What is the point? Piggy is a make do signing that we are stuck with. I would rather give the 4 young props the opportunity than a make do signing.

If IFL is serious and combines top quality with youth then GREAT but if he keeps trying to juggle with make do cheap as chips signings he will buy more runts than top dogs.

[over the hill]

i admit we do need another prop, but if we sign another without releasing one it leaves another position short of a player. who do we release to sign another prop? o`carroll, prescott, or ben davies?

How about a certain Mr Hock?

Dave

yes, but he`s a second row. we need to replace like with like, especially if we don`t re-sign bailey.

[cpwigan]

Promote a second rower from within. How many first team games has Flannagan played in 2009? Farrell in 2009? Mossop in 2009?

[DaveO]

Here is the paradox Dave you are saying lets sign another prop which would give us 8 props (New Prop, Fielden, Feka, Coley, Prescott, O'Carroll, Davies, Mossop). 9 if you wanted to throw in Holland from the reserves.

What that means in practice is regardless of form and regardless of how good they are we stick with these guys and pick 3 or 4 of them per game.

Isn't that what we keep complaining about re Fielden that his form does not warrant his automatic selection?

Therefore there is no paradox. You sign the prop and drop Fielden. So what if he earns a fortune? People want him dropped anyway from the current team.

Yet you then acknowledge we will not play Tommy at 9 because we have 2 hookers and will not run with 3 first team hookers. Largely because as you say we are so short at half back. We have lost Smith which leaves us with Sam and Tommy. What happens if one breaks their leg/tears ligaments. As it stands the squad is not balanced and that is how those in power look at their squad.

This is a completely different situation. All it boils down to is besides a prop we need a half back as well and surprise, surprise before IL suddenly decided we weren't recruiting anybody he wanted a prop and a half back. Neither need has gone away.

Fans are becoming as conservative as our coach IMO when it comes to playing young player. Let Prescott / O'Carroll / Mossop / Davies fight it out. The fire and enthusiasm that internal competition could take Wigan forward considerably.

I don't think that is realistic but the problem is not with them as they are fighting it out for one place alongside Fielden, Feka and Coley. Are you suggesting our four props be Prescott, O'Carroll, Feka and Coley for example? Because if we don't get a new prop it is either that or stick with Fielden and neither option is going to compete with the bigger packs off those teams who are higher up the table than us.

We basically need a top class prop to replace Fielden and we will need it in 2010 as much as 2011 and I see it as a failure on IL's part he has been unable to secure such a player for 2010.

End of 2010 we can sign a top prop. Start of 2010 with minimal spend we could buy another make do prop. What is the point? Piggy is a make do signing that we are stuck with. I would rather give the 4 young props the opportunity than a make do signing.

The only reason we can't complete wage-wise to sign a new prop id because IL has persisted in signing up virtually all the out of contracts players and even with Hocks wage there is seemingly no cash available.

This means we enter 2010 with a very similar team to 2009 and it has not proved good enough. The coach will rightfully carry the can for this but IL isn't going to win many friends in 2010 if we do not improve the side.

If IFL is serious and combines top quality with youth then GREAT but if he keeps trying to juggle with make do cheap as chips signings he will buy more runts than top dogs.

That is exactly what he has done regarding the recruitment for 2010 by not improving the squad.

Dave

[cpwigan]

If the coach was prepared to drop experienced big money players then it would be fine IMO Dave. I would have no hesitation in making Mossop, Prescott and ANO, ANO as the 4 starting props and that means 1 From Fielden, Feka and Coley misses out. If those 3 experienced props do not warrant 2 places then I would not hesitate to play O'Carroll or Davies instead and leave them fighting for 1 place.

How old will Prescott be in 2010? O'Carroll? They are not wet behind the ears. We have both watched Wigan teams with a young prop in Ian Lucas with makeshift props, Stazicker, Gildart and Forshaw (how frightening would that be to some fans today given his size)Not yourself Daver but Gordon Bennett I despair at some fans who have swallowed Duty of Care hook line and sinker. It is the biggest load of BS ever concocted. The game today is timid and so much cleaner than it was. Sure it is physically demanding but you no longer have to have eyes in the back of your head.

Likewise, the obsession with size. If players are big great but they have to be agile and fast. A big duffer is a big duffer. The game has changed. If fans look at stats they would be amazed that very often the wings and fullbacks are hitting the ball up more than props today. Whatsmore you cut your cloth to the players you have which IMO is a failing of Noble. If your players are smaller than the opposition you move the opposition around, you make them work. Did the great Wigan teams play the Steam pigs of Bradford at their own game. Big players are great as long as they are good big uns.

The best player in the world today is 21 and yet I want to bellow at the fans who chortle out duty of care rhetoric. Again I know you do not Dave but strewth do some of those on rlfans not realise what utter bull it is.