Darrell Goulding

[GeoffN]

"Just because of his age"?

By that argument, we'd still have Hanley, Boston, Farrell etc playing for us. All players come to a point where they're past their best, either through age or injury, or a combination of the two.

Sorry Geoff; I don't agree with you on this one. None of the players that you list are still playing; so the comparison is a bit off. What's more; would you rather have a past his best Farrell (as he was in his last year with us) playing for us, or a prime Bryn Hargreaves?

OK, here's a more up-to-date comparison: do you think Saints should have given Long the 2 years he wanted, rather than let him go? From a Wiganer's point of view, I wish they had kept him, but it was the right decision for them, IMO.

During our "glory years", we always released players as they were getting past their best, and that's still a good tactic, as far as I'm concerned. Very few of that era's players retired when they left Wigan, the vast majority went on to other clubs, where they did OK, but not great.

It's been very noticeable that this season, although George has still been making breaks, he's not had the ability to finish them as he used to. That's unlikely to get any better in the next two years.

[butt monkey]

Matthew/DaveO, you are both missing one very valuable fact in your argument. If Carmont was "out of contract" or available to negotiate with any other club prior to its end, why has he not already?? He is free to talk to Salford/St Helens/Celtic/Sale Sharks/Manchester Utd - whoever he wants too and his been able too since (if I remember) the middle of August - some two months! it is speculation that Wigan had the option to exercise on Carmont and somehow "missed" it, not the other way around (I hardly think it's an "oversight" one way or another as you explain - perhaps Wigan forgot to appoint a new coach until it was brought to their attention that Noble was out of contract)

Name any other player (worth having and with their contracts finished, not terminated by mutual consent) that has NOT been signed by any level club in any country playing RL?












































Apart from George

[DaveO]

Matthew/DaveO, you are both missing one very valuable fact in your argument. If Carmont was "out of contract" or available to negotiate with any other club prior to its end, why has he not already??

How do you know he hasn't? He probably wants to stay here rather than for example go to Celtic but he'd be exremely dim not to see what he worth elsewhere. For all we know he has several offers on the table.

He is free to talk to Salford/St Helens/Celtic/Sale Sharks/Manchester Utd - whoever he wants too and his been able too since (if I remember) the middle of August - some two months! it is speculation that Wigan had the option to exercise on Carmont and somehow "missed" it, not the other way around (I hardly think it's an "oversight" one way or another as you explain - perhaps Wigan forgot to appoint a new coach until it was brought to their attention that Noble was out of contract)

The reason it is highly likely the club missed the deadline is obvious when you think about it.

If the club had not missed the deadline and wanted to sign him up for one season and one season only it would have already done so and Carmont would have been bound by the agreement. It would have been sorted by now.

Had they decided to let him go and so deliberately did not hold him to the extra year then it would have already done so meaning it would also have neen sorted by now.

If the club had used the option of the extra year they way they wanted, either signing him for another year or letting him go there is no reason for his future not to have been announced. This is particularly true if they decided to let him leave as the longer it drags on the less options he will have to find another club.

Name any other player (worth having and with their contracts finished, not terminated by mutual consent) that has NOT been signed by any level club in any country playing RL?

Exactly! The fact it has not been announced he has left or signed for another club suggests the club are negotiating with him because I am sure he would get a contract at several other clubs if he wanted to sign and negotiations with Wigan were at an end.

Dave

[DaveO]

OK, here's a more up-to-date comparison: do you think Saints should have given Long the 2 years he wanted, rather than let him go? From a Wiganer's point of view, I wish they had kept him, but it was the right decision for them, IMO.

They are two completely different players at clubs with different circumstances so I simply do not see the relevance of Saints letting Long go. They may feel they have the no 7 shirt sorted but I don't think we have Carmonts centre position sorted if he leaves.

During our "glory years", we always released players as they were getting past their best, and that's still a good tactic, as far as I'm concerned. Very few of that era's players retired when they left Wigan, the vast majority went on to other clubs, where they did OK, but not great.

It's been very noticeable that this season, although George has still been making breaks, he's not had the ability to finish them as he used to. That's unlikely to get any better in the next two years.

As Matthew pointed out he is second top try scorer and his winger our top try scorer. He did this carrying a knock for most of the season (and before you say it, no I don't think he is injury prone). I don't know what else you expect from his side of the park.

We also are not in the glory years with ready made replacements ready to be introduced so we just carry on at the same level and hardly notice the change. We are not at the stage yet where we can be as ruthless as we were then.

If Carmont is let go who do you expect to replace him?

Dave

[Matthew]

OK, here's a more up-to-date comparison: do you think Saints should have given Long the 2 years he wanted, rather than let him go? From a Wiganer's point of view, I wish they had kept him, but it was the right decision for them, IMO.

Whilst I can see why saints have let long go - I do think that it will haunt them. Eastmond whilst exciting is not a particularly great play maker. In fact; he is very similar to Ainscough; great pace and he makes breaks - but I don't think that he is a particularly good link. Apart from anything else; it's a pretty safe bet that long is on probably twice what George is.

Whilst long is probably my least favourite player and is well past his best; he can still organise and he doesn't take a lot of tackles. I would have exactly what I suggested we do with George. He plays next year and then fills in the year after.

During our "glory years", we always released players as they were getting past their best, and that's still a good tactic, as far as I'm concerned. Very few of that era's players retired when they left Wigan, the vast majority went on to other clubs, where they did OK, but not great.

That was because we could simply produce the cheque book and sign whoever we liked as a replacement. IMO George has still been one of the best centres in the league this year and with some time to recover and a good pre-season will be again next year and quite possibly the year after

It's been very noticeable that this season, although George has still been making breaks, he's not had the ability to finish them as he used to. That's unlikely to get any better in the next two years.

But he is still making breaks - he links with Sam and as I mentioned previously; he still draws two defenders to put Pat away. His support play is also very good - and despite being injured this season; he still runs through fullbacks.

Defensively George is very sound and I don't see that changing.

If his injuries are allowed to heal over the close season (and I see no reason why they shouldn't; it's not like he's lost a limb); then there is every chance that he could again get into the dream team.

[Kittwazzer]

I for one think we should keep him!

Darrell Goulding that is!!

[butt monkey]

OK, here's a more up-to-date comparison: do you think Saints should have given Long the 2 years he wanted, rather than let him go? From a Wiganer's point of view, I wish they had kept him, but it was the right decision for them, IMO.

They are two completely different players at clubs with different circumstances so I simply do not see the relevance of Saints letting Long go. They may feel they have the no 7 shirt sorted but I don't think we have Carmonts centre position sorted if he leaves.

During our "glory years", we always released players as they were getting past their best, and that's still a good tactic, as far as I'm concerned. Very few of that era's players retired when they left Wigan, the vast majority went on to other clubs, where they did OK, but not great.

It's been very noticeable that this season, although George has still been making breaks, he's not had the ability to finish them as he used to. That's unlikely to get any better in the next two years.

As Matthew pointed out he is second top try scorer and his winger our top try scorer. He did this carrying a knock for most of the season (and before you say it, no I don't think he is injury prone). I don't know what else you expect from his side of the park.

We also are not in the glory years with ready made replacements ready to be introduced so we just carry on at the same level and hardly notice the change. We are not at the stage yet where we can be as ruthless as we were then.

If Carmont is let go who do you expect to replace him?

Dave

DaveO - Cannot really be bothered to read into much of your speculative post (like mine are I admit) but I feel mine have more basis to them on what has happened to previous players (Higham for example) where they were told they could play for a contract etc. This has simply appeared "out of nowhere" at the season's end??? I think not.

Who (if any of them) simply sat on their backside and did not negotiate and plan for the future? Just waiting idly for the season to finish before wondering IF Wigan might be interested in utilising the option YOU claim Wigan had - not for the only player at Wigan to act upon himself!

Finally, the most important point you fail to raise (because you know you cannot get around it) is that George IS a quota player and if resigned for another 2 years (along with the other mediocre overseas - Riddell/Roberts) will seriously hamper squad strengthening at a time that the most expensive players (salary cap wise) are about to depart! So, no more overseas for signing 34 year old centres who some, are overly sentimental about, when the club already has, and should be using more of, ready made replacements in Goulding and Thornley, especially with the new incoming coach.

What would be achieved by resigning players in the twilight of their careers just as MM attempts to forge a team/playing style of out of these players who are about to leave/retire at the same time as his contract expires and he moves on himself?

What a waste that would be! Result - no legacy.

[Matthew]

Finally, the most important point you fail to raise (because you know you cannot get around it) is that George IS a quota player and if resigned for another 2 years (along with the other mediocre overseas - Riddell/Roberts) will seriously hamper squad strengthening at a time that the most expensive players (salary cap wise) are about to depart!

Are you seriously suggesting that George has been mediocre?!?! This is the joint second highest try scorer at the club this season!If you think that George has been mediocre then you must have been watching a different side to me. I agree that Roberts and Riddell have been a disappointment - but to lump George in with them beggars belief.

And if you think that George is mediocre - then who do you think has been good? And how would you rank Goulding?

So, no more overseas for signing 34 year old centres who some, are overly sentimental about, when the club already has, and should be using more of, ready made replacements in Goulding and Thornley, especially with the new incoming coach.

Goulding is not a ready made replacement for George. He is an unproven player who has failed to impress and barely stood out at a club that finished adrift second from bottom. If you think that Goulding is as good as George then I would suggest that it is you who is sentimental about him! Thornley has not even played in the first team yet anyway! So are you suggesting that if Goulding cannot regain his form we should throw in Thornley every week?

What would be achieved by resigning players in the twilight of their careers just as MM attempts to forge a team/playing style of out of these players who are about to leave/retire at the same time as his contract expires and he moves on himself?

What a waste that would be! Result - no legacy.

If the club didn't want George then they would have announced that he was leaving at the end of the season - like they did with Flannegan. And there are a great deal of other players that are a threat to MM legacy than George.

[butt monkey]

Finally, the most important point you fail to raise (because you know you cannot get around it) is that George IS a quota player and if resigned for another 2 years (along with the other mediocre overseas - Riddell/Roberts) will seriously hamper squad strengthening at a time that the most expensive players (salary cap wise) are about to depart!

Are you seriously suggesting that George has been mediocre?!?! This is the joint second highest try scorer at the club this season!If you think that George has been mediocre then you must have been watching a different side to me. I agree that Roberts and Riddell have been a disappointment - but to lump George in with them beggars belief.

And if you think that George is mediocre - then who do you think has been good? And how would you rank Goulding?

So, no more overseas for signing 34 year old centres who some, are overly sentimental about, when the club already has, and should be using more of, ready made replacements in Goulding and Thornley, especially with the new incoming coach.

Goulding is not a ready made replacement for George. He is an unproven player who has failed to impress and barely stood out at a club that finished adrift second from bottom. If you think that Goulding is as good as George then I would suggest that it is you who is sentimental about him! Thornley has not even played in the first team yet anyway! So are you suggesting that if Goulding cannot regain his form we should throw in Thornley every week?

What would be achieved by resigning players in the twilight of their careers just as MM attempts to forge a team/playing style of out of these players who are about to leave/retire at the same time as his contract expires and he moves on himself?

What a waste that would be! Result - no legacy.

If the club didn't want George then they would have announced that he was leaving at the end of the season - like they did with Flannegan. And there are a great deal of other players that are a threat to MM legacy than George.

Matthew, this will be the last response I will make to any of your posts. I though more of someone who deliberately (by your own words) edits post and makes mischief for their own ends. Go and support a team like your attitude/behaviour deserves, someone likes st helens maybe!!

READ (I assume you can) the post again i will quote for you

that George IS a quota player and if resigned for another 2 years (along with the other mediocre overseas - Riddell/Roberts)

This did not say George was mediocre - Fact, just said that long with other overseas (who have been mediocre) he will "clog up" Wigan's quota - Another Fact for the next two years if resigned.

The simple point to make is that you are unable to positively counter anything I say without a childish tit-for-tat contradiction of what I say! As for Goulding being unproven - you can thank Brian Noble for that (and perhaps his poor form too) as the way the team plays also affects their performances on an individual basis too (or are you going to argue with that too?

Any individual reading this thread will not pay any attention to your babbling thanks to your propensity to editing (and misreading) posts for your own ends - maybe you should become a mod?

[Matthew]

Matthew, this will be the last response I will make to any of your posts. I though more of someone who deliberately (by your own words) edits post and makes mischief for their own ends. Go and support a team like your attitude/behaviour deserves, someone likes st helens maybe!!

READ (I assume you can) the post again i will quote for you

that George IS a quota player and if resigned for another 2 years (along with the other mediocre overseas - Riddell/Roberts)

This did not say George was mediocre - Fact, just said that long with other overseas (who have been mediocre) he will "clog up" Wigan's quota - Another Fact for the next two years if resigned.

The simple point to make is that you are unable to positively counter anything I say without a childish tit-for-tat contradiction of what I say! As for Goulding being unproven - you can thank Brian Noble for that (and perhaps his poor form too) as the way the team plays also affects their performances on an individual basis too (or are you going to argue with that too?

Any individual reading this thread will not pay any attention to your babbling thanks to your propensity to editing (and misreading) posts for your own ends - maybe you should become a mod?

I won't address each point as that seems to upset you so; so here is a nice block of text just for you

Nice to see that rather than answer ANY of the questions that have been put to you by Dave or me; you instead result to personal insults. Classy. And you suggest that I am childish and should support St Helens!

You can take your ball and go home anytime you like; you don't have to declare it to everyone!

The statement "(along with the other mediocre overseas - Riddell/Roberts)" infers that the George should be grouped with these "mediocre" players. If you didn't mean that George should be included in this group then you could have used:

"along with the mediocre overseas players - Riddell/Roberts"

or

"along with the other overseas players (Riddell/Roberts) who have been mediocre"

Before you question my reading skills; perhaps you should review your writing skills?

Throughout this thread you have stated that you don't think we should resign George and I am guessing that is because you don't think he is good enough - or am I wrong again?

So to make things crystal clear here is a question:

Please list the players in Wigan's first team, that you think have had a better season than George.

Then

Please list the centres that we have had at the club in the last ten years that you think are better than George.

I have also suggested that I think that you will find that George - like Bailey, will no longer be counted as a quota player when his current contract expires.

I personally don't believe that. barring a massive upturn in form, Goulding will be up to the job of centre and will therefore rightly be let go when his current contract expires. This will leave us with one experienced centre and one player who has yet to play for the first team. Therefore I think that it would be in the best interests of the team to have some back up at centre for the next two years.