Reason to be cheerful - Matty Smith

[Wandering Warrior]

Gimble
Did you manage to complete reading the post before you fell asleep? If so well done!!

[thegimble]

Gimble
Did you manage to complete reading the post before you fell asleep? If so well done!!

tbh I am still thinking about it.

Its rather perplexes me that people panic that Finch and TL are gong when we lost a better big game player than both last season in Deacon. Neither could be classed as genuine world class because they lacked one of the most fundamental part of the modern game and especially big games and that's a kicking game. Deacon might have been way beyond his best when he came to us but he had a very good kicking game and could take control of a tight match something neither this season could do.

Look at the 13,9,7 and 6 combinations of the top 5 in SL and individually this season Leeds appear to be the weaker of the lot from what i have seen throughout this season. But when it matters they become efficient and turn sides around with a very good kicking game. We lack that and that what cost us against Leeds in the Semi. What did not help was the inability of both Mossop and Lima to get into the game. Lauaki and Flower were far better than either on the night.

It and integral part of the game now and I do think that both Green and Smith have a better kicking game than Finch and TL and as Leeds have once again proved its all about controlling the big games and we have really lacked that this season. In the Semi against Leeds in the CC due to us not having a kicking game to get us out of a tricky situation we played panic rugby as early as the first half.

Sinfield, McGuire and Burrows are nowhere near world class but they are the best at controlling the big games in SL and come the playoffs i would take them over our 13,6 and 7 when it really matters.

[Wandering Warrior]

Gimble
Think that has been proven with Leeds success over the past couple of seasons.
Lima's season effectively ended when rumours then the declaration that he was leaving became fact IMHO.

[Andrew0604]

It should tell you that Tommy and Finch worked well together. They had 2 years to work on it, Smith is a new kid and needed to sync with Finch from day 1

[DaveO]

Its rather perplexes me that people panic that Finch and TL are gong when we lost a better big game player than both last season in Deacon.

Give over. You seem to have forgotten we have won "big games" with these players and when Tommy was injured the wheels came off. If you went over to the Leeds board on rlfans you would have seen how happy they were Tommy was injured and out of the cup semi final. They recognised his significance to the side if you now don't.

Neither could be classed as genuine world class because they lacked one of the most fundamental part of the modern game and especially big games and that's a kicking game. Deacon might have been way beyond his best when he came to us but he had a very good kicking game and could take control of a tight match something neither this season could do.

Sorry but that is rubbish.

It never ceases to amaze how poor some players become when they leave.

Which tight games did they fail to control? The cup semi when Tommy wasn't playing and Wane played Lockers at 6 or the play off semi when Wane had a brain fart and played Lockers at 9 and Murphy at 1 and the pack had already retired for the season?

Look at the 13,9,7 and 6 combinations of the top 5 in SL and individually this season Leeds appear to be the weaker of the lot from what i have seen throughout this season. But when it matters they become efficient and turn sides around with a very good kicking game. We lack that and that what cost us against Leeds in the Semi. What did not help was the inability of both Mossop and Lima to get into the game. Lauaki and Flower were far better than either on the night.

Well at least there is some recognition there that the pack was poor. How well do you think Deacon would have gone in those circumstances? Or for that matter the Leeds half backs with the roles reversed?

It and integral part of the game now and I do think that both Green and Smith have a better kicking game than Finch and TL and as Leeds have once again proved its all about controlling the big games and we have really lacked that this season. In the Semi against Leeds in the CC due to us not having a kicking game to get us out of a tricky situation we played panic rugby as early as the first half.

I suppose it has to be about the kicking game and virtually nothing else otherwise you would not have a point. You may have convinced yourself by this argument (along with slating Tommy and Finch) but not me.

Sinfield, McGuire and Burrows are nowhere near world class but they are the best at controlling the big games in SL and come the playoffs i would take them over our 13,6 and 7 when it really matters.

The last time we played Leeds in a big game with Tommy at 7, Finch at 6 and Lockers at 13 was in fact the 2011 cup final which of course we won.

So when it really mattered and we had all three in their correct positions we won. When we didn't we lost and there is no doubt in my mind at all that in both this years cup semi final and play off semi this was a big factor both times.

What is more Tommy and Finch would actually make Leeds stronger, not weaker and I am sure Brian McDermott would take either at the drop of a hat. I doubt he would have any interest at all in Smith (the subject of this thread).

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

Tommy was a very unique player. More individual talent than an old fashioned half back stereotype. It took Tommy some time to become the player he is and even now like all players he has limitations.

Perhaps Smith and Green AND Powell should be afforded the dame time / opportunity ?

Snith and Green are of an age to allow Powell / Williams / Hampshire the time to develop.

Wigan's plan is to give time for the above three to step up to the first team, hence the reason Green and Smith are on 2/3 year deals, - they are all talented individuals who need to be schooled carefully. Above all, whilst they possess exceptional individual attributes, they are team players. Wigan have high hopes for these young guys and are excited about producing the next Edwards/Gregory partnership!

A team with 17 good quality players will win the majority of their games. A couple of players with mercurial brilliance, in an average team, will win a handful of games on their own but the team will lose more than they win. Mix the two together and you will win trophies, ala Wigan 2012. Teams win and lose games of rugby not individuals.

I once asked one of the great junior coaches, Ray Unsworth, what he looked for when scouting for players, he was adamant that, first and foremost, they had to be a team player.

As far as I am concerned the jury is out on Smith and Green, as it would be on any new recruit, until they have played a season with Wigan. I want to see how they integrate, what attributes they can bring to the team, if those attributes improve the team's performance as a whole.

[weststand-rich]

Wigan's plan is to give time for the above three to step up to the first team, hence the reason Green and Smith are on 2/3 year deals, - they are all talented individuals who need to be schooled carefully. Above all, whilst they possess exceptional individual attributes, they are team players. Wigan have high hopes for these young guys and are excited about producing the next Edwards/Gregory partnership!

I've seen Wigan pursue this half-back/hooking development strategy for the past 12 years and the only talent that emerged into Wigan and cemented has been Tomkins and McIllorum. Brown & Robinson? Thomas & James Coyle? You could argue that these players were let down by the club at the time that lacked a good senior environment and mentoring structure, but developing creative players within is relatively high-risk. We can't assume that out academy products will necessarily pan out.

RL isn't really an early maturation sport, but half-backs in their early/mid 20's are approaching the finished article. It doesn't matter what sheen you try and put on it, Smith and Green are not as good players as the players they replace. Playing in Wigan as a better club might add some value, but not as much as you'd hope.

I look at it like this. I'm an academic research scientist and I'm 41. I work at Manchester University. I produce 3-4 international research quality papers a year and have a reputation as an expert in my field. I can improve and tweak my performance, but I'm essentially the finished product. If Oxford University came in to 'sign' me as a top club, I might do slightly better there, because of the change and stimulation from new people and access to more varied support and facilities. But it's only tweaking me. I'm not going to win a Nobel prize.

It's the same with RL players. For us to get substantially more out of an established player they have to have been underperforming at their current club. Wigan doesn't have a magic wand.

[Ron Doran]

shaunedwardsfan​club​ - You, especially with your posting name, should admit, even to yourself, that there won't be another Edwards/Gregory partnership. It was unique and will remain so.

[thegimble]

Its rather perplexes me that people panic that Finch and TL are gong when we lost a better big game player than both last season in Deacon.

Give over. You seem to have forgotten we have won "big games" with these players and when Tommy was injured the wheels came off. If you went over to the Leeds board on rlfans you would have seen how happy they were Tommy was injured and out of the cup semi final. They recognised his significance to the side if you now don't.

Neither could be classed as genuine world class because they lacked one of the most fundamental part of the modern game and especially big games and that's a kicking game. Deacon might have been way beyond his best when he came to us but he had a very good kicking game and could take control of a tight match something neither this season could do.

Sorry but that is rubbish.

It never ceases to amaze how poor some players become when they leave.

Which tight games did they fail to control? The cup semi when Tommy wasn't playing and Wane played Lockers at 6 or the play off semi when Wane had a brain fart and played Lockers at 9 and Murphy at 1 and the pack had already retired for the season?

Look at the 13,9,7 and 6 combinations of the top 5 in SL and individually this season Leeds appear to be the weaker of the lot from what i have seen throughout this season. But when it matters they become efficient and turn sides around with a very good kicking game. We lack that and that what cost us against Leeds in the Semi. What did not help was the inability of both Mossop and Lima to get into the game. Lauaki and Flower were far better than either on the night.

Well at least there is some recognition there that the pack was poor. How well do you think Deacon would have gone in those circumstances? Or for that matter the Leeds half backs with the roles reversed?

It and integral part of the game now and I do think that both Green and Smith have a better kicking game than Finch and TL and as Leeds have once again proved its all about controlling the big games and we have really lacked that this season. In the Semi against Leeds in the CC due to us not having a kicking game to get us out of a tricky situation we played panic rugby as early as the first half.

I suppose it has to be about the kicking game and virtually nothing else otherwise you would not have a point. You may have convinced yourself by this argument (along with slating Tommy and Finch) but not me.

Sinfield, McGuire and Burrows are nowhere near world class but they are the best at controlling the big games in SL and come the playoffs i would take them over our 13,6 and 7 when it really matters.

The last time we played Leeds in a big game with Tommy at 7, Finch at 6 and Lockers at 13 was in fact the 2011 cup final which of course we won.

So when it really mattered and we had all three in their correct positions we won. When we didn't we lost and there is no doubt in my mind at all that in both this years cup semi final and play off semi this was a big factor both times.

What is more Tommy and Finch would actually make Leeds stronger, not weaker and I am sure Brian McDermott would take either at the drop of a hat. I doubt he would have any interest at all in Smith (the subject of this thread).

Amazes me that you still paint an incorrect picture. Deacon was at 6 for the 2011 challenge cup final. Here is a link for wiki but i do agree its not the most accurate thing in the world but checked the guardian as well had the same team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Challenge_Cup

Have we had a good kicking game without Deacon obviously we have not in fact its amongst the weakest of the top 5 in SL now. Finch is not a good kicker and that's his biggest weakness. His ability to pick a pass is up there with Barrett and Lam but he lacks what made these 2 great.

The wheels did start to come off when TL got injured i agree but he was fully fit for the play offs. Major factor for the wheels not been back on was the pack and the inability to give position to control a game. But players like Briers, Burrows, Sinfield etc have a much better kicking game and can turn sides around. Something Finch can not do. Maybe he lacked any real distance and became predictable.

Since when are these boards about convincing people is that's why you post such deliberately long replies. I have an opinion as you do i am not trying to convince any one maybe that's what you do but some on here are not that gull-able.

As for Leeds they would take TL for Burrows I agree with that but they would not change Maguire for Finch. Maguire for all his annoyance is a very talented player and a great support player.

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

shaunedwardsfan​club​ - You, especially with your posting name, should admit, even to yourself, that there won't be another Edwards/Gregory partnership. It was unique and will remain so.

Ron - I agree that they are different to Giz and Greg and by comparing them with those two greats they have a lot to live up to, but the club feel that they will both play at the highest level.

For what it is worth, I think, with a bit of luck and dedication they could be the next great half back pairing. They are both exceptional rugby players in their own right and they form an excellent combination. I'm glad they are on our books!