Time for a divorse Mrs Carney

[DaveO]

adrenalinxx posted:

Don't be so flippin' stupid. This is real life not Roy of the Rovers (wrong sport but you get my drift hopefully). He can't just "leave". Wigan have to release him form his contract.

I honestly hope that you never become a coach or for that matter have to make any important decisions in your life because it could be a disaster.

Carney says he want to be released which shows that he wants to leave (hope you still understand)

I understand perfectly he wanted to leave but what you failed to understand it was up to the club to release him and they had the final say.

if Wigan say that he has to stay he will be unhappy which will probably lead to lack of effort while training therefore effecting his performance because he is being forced to do something instead doing because he wants to.

You have absolutely no idea how he would react.

FYI Wigan have tried to get Fletcher and Logan released but their clubs have said no. The club tried with Fletcher when they signed him and again following his recent upset with the racial incident.

Both times his club refused to release him early.

He has not gone into a sulk and is being professional about his last season at his current club.

It would seem Australian players behave like this all the time. They sign a contract and are used to moving on at the end of it. Not before.

Why should Carney be any different?

Then you have to look at the effect on players around him, his attitude to Wigan might affect other people, and players such as Colbon and other youngsters who want to replace him it won't help them to see a player who doesn't even want to play in the team before a person who really wants to play.

They also know he would be leaving at the end of 2006. What they think isn't an arguement anyway. They know they aren't as good a player as he is and they also know that players move on at the end of their contracts.

Millward has said that he won't stand in Carneys way so basically if you hearts not in it then go.

You look at the situation from one point of view, your own. You talk as if Carney is an object that belongs to Wigan and which can not be removed on the basis that you don't want him to leave.

No, I do want him to leave because of what he has said as yes his heart clearly isn't in it. My beef with him is that he has behaved appallingly over this and should have been professional about it.

The news on the BBC is that Wigan have agreed to release him and he himself has stated they did not need to do that. Had hen not asked for it I am sure they would not have even considered it.


I would just like players to behave in a professional manner and see out their contracts. He was not forced to sign it and he has been well looked after by the club when injured.

If every time a player fancies a change we let them leave we will never be able to plan for the coming season let alone put down a plan that looks ahead for a few years. There can always be an excuse for a player wanting to get out early and sooner or later the club is going to have to say "no" or every time some agent tries to entice a player to move on we won't be able to keep them.

Players agents make money by moving players on as they do in soccer so it is no surprise the O'Loughlin rumour has re-surfaced. If he wants to leave after his contract is up in 2007 and he comes to the club with some sob story about leaving early do we release him rarly as well?

How could we refuse now we have caved in to Carney?

Try thinking about it from Carneys point of view after all he is a person how has dreams and ambitions just like everyone else but he knows that he has a limited time to achieve it and his contract at Wigan is standing in the way.

He shoud not have signed such a long term deal then!

And as to his "dream" that was about to be granted in 2007 a mere one season later.

There is simply no excuse in my book for him asking for this early release. None at all. This is professional sport and had the club decided it was not going to release him then he would just have had to have got on with it. He is not a kid but a grown man who knows how the system works.

It is pretty simple stuff.

Players do have a life you know they are not tied and left in the changing rooms until the next match and you have to respect that they don't have to play rugby but it's a choice of there free will to do so.

It was his free will to sign a contract. That by the way involved making a commitment. Does the thought ever cross your mind that going back on a commitment is a poor thing to do?

Also look at the situation from other players point of views, do Wigan really need a player who does really want to play.

It’s Sports Psychology and a bit of common sense.

Sports Psychology. That is hilarious. Players see their job as just that, a job. They play with whoever is in the team. You are placing far more weight to the emotional side of this than there is. It is a business and a professional sport.

Dave

[Fraggle]

adrenalinxx posted:
You look at the situation from one point of view, your own. You talk as if Carney is an object that belongs to Wigan and which can not be removed on the basis that you don't want him to leave.

Try thinking about it from Carneys point of view after all he is a person how has dreams and ambitions just like everyone else but he knows that he has a limited time to achieve it and his contract at Wigan is standing in the way. Players do have a life you know they are not tied and left in the changing rooms until the next match and you have to respect that they don't have to play rugby but it's a choice of there free will to do so.

Dave's already covered most of this, but I've got to reply to your comment that "You talk as if Carney is an object that belongs to Wigan" - is it not the case that HE signed a contract which ties him to the club, therefore the club does indeed hold the rights to what he does in his career? The club DOES own the player on an employment basis, and will have some influence on his life outside the job as well (such as no alcohol before a match etc), in return for which he gets very well paid. To say "his contract at Wigan is standing in the way" is ludicrous, HE SIGNED THIS CONTRACT!!!! He's been well rewarded for it, much better rewarded than I am for signing a contract where I work where I have much greater restrictions on my life than a rugby player does (the result of living at work as well as working there, meaning I have to act in a responsible way and represent the business 24/7). If he wasn't happy with his contract then perhaps he should have negotiated a looser contract in terms of termination, with a reduction in wages to cover his reduced commitment to the team.

At the end of the day, rugby league is a team sport, where individuals commit themselves to a team for a period of time in exchange for big money. The team suffers when one person wants to change the rules, and in this case Carney is causing the team to suffer by wanting out. The club doesn't have to employ him, it doesn't have to pay him lots of money, but it has done and he should have agreed to honour his side of the contract in return.

It'll be interesting to see what kind of reception he gets from fans if he plays again this season before going off to Aus. I won't be cheering for him, the same as I won't support anyone who works for me who's not committed to the job.

[adrenalinxx]

FYI Wigan have tried to get Fletcher and Logan released but their clubs have said no. The club tried with Fletcher when they signed him and again following his recent upset with the racial incident.

Yes but Wigan were trying to get a player to be released during the middle of a season. Careny atleast asked if he could be released at the end of the season.

No, I do want him to leave because of what he has said as yes his heart clearly isn't in it. My beef with him is that he has behaved appallingly over this and should have been professional about it.

If you have a job (Probably not considering you have a pciture of Avril Lavigne which suggest your about 10 years old) but anyway if you decided you didn't like your job and had found another job somewhere where you want to work but your boss said "no sorry you made a commitement to us you can go" how would you really feel about that.

There is simply no excuse in my book for him asking for this early release. None at all. This is professional sport and had the club decided it was not going to release him then he would just have had to have got on with it. He is not a kid but a grown man who knows how the system works.

Ok then Wigan should keep a player who does even want to play and does even play that often pay him 20K+ and his insurance money.

It is pretty simple stuff.

I agree:
1. Player doesn't want to stay at club
2. Club don't want player
3. Bye Bye Brain

It was his free will to sign a contract. That by the way involved making a commitment. Does the thought ever cross your mind that going back on a commitment is a poor thing to do?

Nope, if i'm unhappy with something I change it even if I have made a commitment because doing something you don't want to do does help you or the people your working with.

Sports Psychology. That is hilarious. Players see their job as just that, a job. They play with whoever is in the team. You are placing far more weight to the emotional side of this than there is. It is a business and a professional sport.

Sports Psychology is very important to a player and a team. If thre is no psychology involved then how do you motivate players? why do people talk about a lack of convidence in players?

Motivation-Convidence-Performance

Think about it you have been motivated by the coach your convident for the up coming game and you get on the pitch but you know the player next to you doesn't want to play so you start thinking about whether to pass to this player or not. During the game you give him the ball and he makes a run but you can see that it's not 100% so you start to have doubts about passing to him or about your own ability so you don't progress to performance instead you have to be motivated again.
Motivation is not as easy as you may think for a Rugby player considering they spend much of career feeling tired.

It is almost impossible for someone to give 100% into something they don't want to do so Carney wouldn't be able tom play at his best if he is unhappy at Wigan.

So he has done the right thing by asking to be released so that he can get on with playing Rugby and so can Wigan.

[Fraggle]

adrenalinxx posted:
If you have a job (Probably not considering you have a pciture of Avril Lavigne which suggest your about 10 years old) but anyway if you decided you didn't like your job and had found another job somewhere where you want to work but your boss said "no sorry you made a commitement to us you can go" how would you really feel about that.

Doesn't matter. A contract is a legally binding contract, therefore both sides are legally required to honour whatever it is they've put their names to. Normally this is that the employer agrees to pay x pounds and allow x days holiday, in exchange for the worker doing x, y and z. If I'm not happy then I'm not happy then that's up to me, I've signed the contract so I've only got myself to blame. If I then stop working as I'd agreed to do then my employers have the right to haul me in to challenge my attitude, and if it turns out that in the long time I'm not doing what I'm paid to do then I'm in breach of contract and can suffer the consequences.

[Fraggle]

adrenalinxx posted:
It is almost impossible for someone to give 100% into something they don't want to do so Carney wouldn't be able tom play at his best if he is unhappy at Wigan.

He agreed to the contract. If he's not doing his job, he should be sacked or otherwise disciplined. He's getting huge amounts of money for committing to Wigan for a couple of years, it's not like he's on minimum wage with a chance for a proper job elsewhere.

[adrenalinxx]

He agreed to the contract. If he's not doing his job, he should be sacked or otherwise disciplined. He's getting huge amounts of money for committing to Wigan for a couple of years, it's not like he's on minimum wage with a chance for a proper job elsewhere.

I agree he is not doing his job that why Wigan have released him.

I also agree he is getting a lot of money playing for Wigan but he didn't demand that money that money was given to him when they gave him a contract

[Fraggle]

adrenalinxx posted:
I also agree he is getting a lot of money playing for Wigan but he didn't demand that money that money was given to him when they gave him a contract

Maybe a bit naive there. If the money wasn't enough he'd have gone elsewhere last time his contact was up for renewal. He will, in effect, have demanded that money through negotiating what it would cost Wigan for him to stay - if the club's offer was too low, he'd have been off looking elsewhere. There will always be clubs interested in international players, so he'd have known he could get a decent offer from somewhere else if Wigan didn't seem interested enough to offer him the amount of money he wanted.

[adrenalinxx]

Doesn't matter. A contract is a legally binding contract, therefore both sides are legally required to honour whatever it is they've put their names to. Normally this is that the employer agrees to pay x pounds and allow x days holiday, in exchange for the worker doing x, y and z. If I'm not happy then I'm not happy then that's up to me, I've signed the contract so I've only got myself to blame. If I then stop working as I'd agreed to do then my employers have the right to haul me in to challenge my attitude, and if it turns out that in the long time I'm not doing what I'm paid to do then I'm in breach of contract and can suffer the consequences.

Yes but since slavery was abolished in the UK when an employer and employee sign a contract they still have to respect the free will of that person which gives them rights like sick leave etc but it also allows the employee to leave if he/she is unhappy providing they give prior notice.

Carney ASKED is he could be release from his contract and Wigan agreed.
Some people are making it sound as if Carney has robbed the tills at JJB and hired a get-a-away plane to Australia.

Carney has given plenty of notice to Wigan and even given them the option to keep him for another year but Wigan have decided that Carney to go

I can understand people are unhappy at Carney leaving because he's a popular player but there is nothing wrong how Carney has done this because he is not leaving us in the middle of the season, he's decided to stay on till the end and both Carney and Wigan have reviewed the situation and decided on the best course of action.

Carney is leaving get over it. Its not the first time this has happened and is not the last

[Matthew]

Few points that I would like to chip in...

adrenalinxx posted:Probably not considering you have a pciture of Avril Lavigne which suggest your about 10 years old

DaveO will love that one! He changed his picture to Avril Lavigne after a thread where she was discussed - prior to that it was the squirrel with the acorn from Ice Age. I am pretty sure Dave is a bit older than 10 from his previous posts and that he is an IT bod - like myself and a lot of the people on here. You've made some good points and are holding your own - don't spoil it with insults

adrenalinxx posted:but anyway if you decided you didn't like your job and had found another job somewhere where you want to work but your boss said "no sorry you made a commitement to us you can go" how would you really feel about that.

Full time Employment in the UK fits into two categories (this is a really basic breakdown - so please don't quote the law on me)

When most of us start a job, an end date is not arranged - the employment is open ended on a fixed salary (which is reviewed yearly if you are lucky). If the person decides to leave then a period of notice must be worked (unless the employer decides that they do not want the employee to work it) before employment can be terminated. The employee signs a "conditions of employment" agreement when starting work.

The other type of full time employment is fixed contract. Where both sides agree the length, salary, holiday etc of employment at the start as well as a termination date. If either side defaults on this contract then there are usually penalties involved. In sport this is avoided by transfer fees (like the ridiculous amounts in soccer) or the paying off of a contract by the club - however this was not the case with Mr Carney. He wished Wigan to terminate his contract without financial compensation. He was aware when the contract would end when he signed it and so to ask to be simply let go because he changed his mind was in my opinion wrong - Wigan would not have released him if it had been another SL club and Newcastle should have had to pay a transfer fee if they wanted him.

I personally will not miss Carney. He has played some good games and scored some great tries - however he has never regained his form since breaking his ankle and his commitment has been lacking for some time.

I did not like the way he spoke to the press about how much he wanted to play for the Knights and how much he wanted to play with Johns et al - as it put a great deal of pressure on Wigan to release him.

As far as I am concerned, the first thing we should have heard about this was when the deal was done/contract was terminated.

[Fraggle]

adrenalinxx posted:
Yes but since slavery was abolished in the UK when an employer and employee sign a contract they still have to respect the free will of that person which gives them rights like sick leave etc but it also allows the employee to leave if he/she is unhappy providing they give prior notice.

There's no notice period in a fixed-term contract, hence then name "fixed term". The notice period is, effectively, the end of the contract as agreed by both parties when they sign the contract. There may be a get-out clause, whereby one side or the other can end the contract based on specific conditions (eg relegation from SL) but "I want out" isn't usually enough reason. Remember, lots of people this season have said "we've got to get rid of x, y and z", but it's not so easy since the player can refuse to leave or can demand compensation for the breach of contract. This is no different except it's the club wanting to protect its interests and investment.