Dont Blame The Ref

[DaveO]

robjoenz posted:
Yes DaveO I have understood your point of view right from the outset so there is no need to be so patronising.

In my opinion Kirkpatrick called the last tackle and then realised something had happened that he had not seen because of a poor vantage point from behind the attacking line.

So? He had already made his descion to end the play.

The Wakefield players went upto him saying it was a try, the Wigan players saying that he had already shouted held (our captain was suggesting to him that he consult the video ref). He had no idea what had actually happened so in my opinion the fairest thing he could do was goto the video ref.

Clearly he did have an idea of what had happened because he called held. He had judged the tackle complete and the play over. Otherwise he would not have called held.

He had made the judgement that the requisite amount of time had elapsed sufficient for him to call held.

Wakefiueld scored after he called held so if he was to ask the video ref anything it ought to have been did the offense continue to play after he had made the call so he could decide if it was play-on and 6th tackle or was it a penalty to Wigan.

Of course we know the video ref can't judge that because he has no sound so could not make that call.

So what KK did was change his mind after he had made a call that said the play was complete. There is simply no way to justify this.

It might seem fair to you but it was not technically the correct thing to do. He made a mistake and put the video ref in an impossible position.

He is not supposed to make a deciion, then ask the video ref to second guess it. It is that simple.

This is not the first time a referee has changed his mind.

It is the first time I have ever seen a ref ask the video ref to change it for him!

I have seen matches before where we have been given a scrum then the touch judge has given the referee some information and the feed was awarded to the opposition. I have also seen a scrum signalled and then a penalty given (accidental offside from a knock on I think it was).

The difference there is that a ref has called it and then the touch judge has come on or attracted the refs attension. There is nothing wrong with that obviously but for that to apply in Friday the video ref would have had to have contacted KK to tell him about the player plonking the ball on the line.

It was the other way around after KK had already made a decision.

Put it this way, had the incident been the other way around how many Wigan fans would have been stood there saying to their mate, "oh dear he's shouted held there so it's no try, fair enough!" We'd be going mental if he'd told us to play-the-ball. Had it gone to the video ref however it would be easier to accept. Video ref made the wrong decision!

It is not about whether we would be going mental or not it is about whether or not he was right in what he did. You could arguehe was being fair about it but ignoring the rules to be fair is not what he is employed to do.

The simple fact is that the ball was placed down after he called held. Did he call held too soon? It doesn't matter, what matters is he called it. He is not competant whichever way you look at. He was either too hasty, badly positioned or he made a huge blunder or all of that!

Dave

[robjoenz]

I can see we're not going to agree on this one DaveO but I personally think Kirkpatrick did nothing wrong in trying to confirm what had happened. Had we scored a try in similar circumstances every single Wigan fan would be absolutely raging if it was not checked by the video ref and just dismissed. Especially if we score a perfectly good try and the referee has already made his mind up that it was held up for instance, like at the Halliwell Jones when he didn't fully consult all available officials. Referees get an awful lot of stick and in this instance he would have been called useless by either set of fans based on whichever decision he made.

[jinkin jimmy]

At the end of the day what does it matter? A draw wasn't good enough for us anyway. As far as I'm concerned the season is now over (in July!). We won't go down, we won't make the play offs and I don't think I'll be going to many more matches this season. There's nothing to play for and I've seen all I need to see of our current squad.

[DaveO]

robjoenz posted:
I can see we're not going to agree on this one DaveO but I personally think Kirkpatrick did nothing wrong in trying to confirm what had happened.

As I have tried to explain he was wrong because referees are not supposed to use the video referess to overturn a decision that thay have already made.

Have you ever seen a referres award a try and then go tothe video referee to have him check it?

It doesn't happen because once the referees has called play is complete that is the end of it and it is not supposed to be sent to the video referee.

The video refs are there to make make a decsion instead of the referee.

Had we scored a try in similar circumstances every single Wigan fan would be absolutely raging if it was not checked by the video ref and just dismissed.

I don't see how that matters. It would be incorrect to expect a try to be awared for a play completed after the ref had called held.

Especially if we score a perfectly good try and the referee has already made his mind up that it was held up for instance, like at the Halliwell Jones when he didn't fully consult all available officials. Referees get an awful lot of stick and in this instance he would have been called useless by either set of fans based on whichever decision he made.

Referees get a lot of stick for using the video referee instead of making the decision themselves. In this case he made one and still went to the video ref.

It is an important distinction because if referees start thinking they can use the video ref to check what they have called we may as well have each decision referred to him.

Dave

[DaveO]

jinkin jimmy posted:
At the end of the day what does it matter?

It could set a precident that ends up with the video ref running the entire match with the ref using him to check anything he is unsure of after he has made a call. It is unworkable.

A draw wasn't good enough for us anyway. As far as I'm concerned the season is now over (in July!). We won't go down, we won't make the play offs and I don't think I'll be going to many more matches this season. There's nothing to play for and I've seen all I need to see of our current squad.

Well mathematically we are not safe yet and I will be nervous until we are (Come on Hull!) but I agree in practical terms the season is now over.

London and for that matter Wakefield will win more than us to the end of the season and the playoffs are gone.

I dare say quite a few fans will now not bother going especially non-season ticket hlders who fork out for each game to see the team play as they do.

I am a season ticket holder so although I might feel like it is not worth the bother I will no doubt be there most weeks but I can sympathise with your view about not going.

I won't be there v Salford as I am off on holiday for two weeks so I could well be missing the best chance we have for a home victory in the last few games which is a sobering thought. We could finish the season on 20 points.

I expect the excellent crowd average to be severelly dented in the last few games.

Dave

[Wildcat]

looks like he though solo was going to be held and shouted last, and when he heard the trin fans shout, he had to go to the video ref.

poor reffing valid try, get over it....goodbye

revenge for last season and orrs try.

[Wizard_Millward]

Wildcat posted:
looks like he though solo was going to be held and shouted last, and when he heard the trin fans shout, he had to go to the video ref.

poor reffing valid try, get over it....goodbye

revenge for last season and orrs try.

Does goodbye mean you won't be returning for a while? :eusa10:

[jodie clark]

the ref new what he was doing
if he had gone to the video ref for that it would have shown when he said held and when he grounded the ball
i didnt see that