Charnley & Sarginson to leave

[i'm spartacus]

I wouldn't worry too much.

Josh will be fast tracked into the England team where they will probably pick him at prop before crucifying him in the press for not fully understanding the game.

Back by Christmas

[LooseHead]

12 - 14 years to make the sort of money you'll not see in the following 12-14 years when the knackered joints and niggles really kick in and you haven't got access to top level medical care. Do you stick around thinking that everyone will think better of you when you retire as a one club player, or follow money? People like Lockers are increasingly few and far between, and they're lucky to have had the roll of the dice.

There's plenty of examples of players being roughly treated by clubs. To be honest, if we signed a world class player would any of us give tuppence about the mortgage of the Wigan born and bred player he bumps out of selection?

RL is a business for players, a business for chairmen and a passion for fans - I can't blame Josh or any other player for wanting to retire with bulging pockets.

[Wigan_forever1985]

12 - 14 years to make the sort of money you'll not see in the following 12-14 years when the knackered joints and niggles really kick in and you haven't got access to top level medical care. Do you stick around thinking that everyone will think better of you when you retire as a one club player, or follow money? People like Lockers are increasingly few and far between, and they're lucky to have had the roll of the dice.

There's plenty of examples of players being roughly treated by clubs. To be honest, if we signed a world class player would any of us give tuppence about the mortgage of the Wigan born and bred player he bumps out of selection?

RL is a business for players, a business for chairmen and a passion for fans - I can't blame Josh or any other player for wanting to retire with bulging pockets.

All this is true for other teams too though not just us, so why does it only seem to be Wigan that leak 2-4 senior players every season year on year

[RJ]

Unfortunately we will never know the details and quite rightly so but our salary cap has probably been substantially swallowed by the return of Tomkins S. I only hope it turns out to be worth it.

[LooseHead]

We pay as much combined to lockers, Joel T, Sam T and Liam F as any other club pays it's top 5 players let alone top 4. Reality is that once you get your top 4 or 5 locked in you have a certain amount to spread around. Saints, Leeds, Wire are all heavily relying on youth this year or home grown talent that is good talent but not attracting union or NRL money. If someone like Makinson got offered what Josh has been given by Sale then you wouldn't see him for dust. Problem is the size of the prize in union money, no top club since Rads and Cunningham decided to stay in league due to RFL investment has managed to keep league players away from union.

We're not bleeding top players - or that's the view taken by IL and SW at least. There's 4 or 5 they have labelled indispensable, but no more than that.

[DaveO]

Unfortunately we will never know the details and quite rightly so but our salary cap has probably been substantially swallowed by the return of Tomkins S. I only hope it turns out to be worth it.

He is our marquee player so assuming he qualifies as "club trained" we can pay him what we like and only £100K counts on the salary cap.

So that isn't it.

[cpwigan]

To be fair, Charnley used to be an international winger, now he is still some way down the pecking order. He might see his chances of playing for England again diminishing, especially now there are already two wingers just from our own academy system who have become better players (Budgie and Manfredi).

They are not already better players. At this point in time Josh is better than the pair of them. Budgie is a favourite of mine and looks a natural RL player (unlike someone like Sarge for example) but defensively he isn't close to Josh and neither is Manfredi. As Josh is now fit again anyone can see he looks back to his best on attack as well.

It wouldn't surprise me if Josh is seeking a higher profile, which he can obviously achieve in rugby union. He may have a better chance of making the England RU team if he can adapt to Union. He stated last year that he might need a change as he's come to a crossroads in his career, so it wouldn't surprise me if the decision to leave was made a while ago.

Crossroads of his career? You are now making stuff up. He is 24 not 34 and should be reaching his peak as a winger. As to higher profile in RU he's gone to the wrong club for that. In RU players leave Sale to further their England chances as has happened recently and this isn't the RFU parachuting a player into a club with a view to him playing for England. If he plays for England I'd be very surprised.

You must be watching a different game to me Dave. Last season and this Josh has been far behind Manfredi and likewise last season with Budgie.

Defensively particularly dealing with kicks Josh is way behind. Oddly given your belief Dave, teams target Josh not Budgie, not Manfredi BUT Josh!

If Dom and Budgie were still here; Josh would rightly not be selected unless One filled in at FB.

I do agree, this is not about England RU, Josh is behind numerous wingers, some not even in the squad.

Josh is not back to his best BTW. Even now he is some way behind his best.

[DaveO]

We pay as much combined to lockers, Joel T, Sam T and Liam F as any other club pays it's top 5 players let alone top 4.

Then Faz and Joel T are on a ludicrously high salary because only a portion of Lockers salary counts on the cap due to his length of service with us and as said previously only £100K of Sam's salary counts against the cap.

So that can't be it either.

Reality is that once you get your top 4 or 5 locked in you have a certain amount to spread around. Saints, Leeds, Wire are all heavily relying on youth this year or home grown talent that is good talent but not attracting union or NRL money. If someone like Makinson got offered what Josh has been given by Sale then you wouldn't see him for dust. Problem is the size of the prize in union money, no top club since Rads and Cunningham decided to stay in league due to RFL investment has managed to keep league players away from union.

That is not happening. There are several players in the league at Josh's level but only Wigan seem to lose them. While some players have returned there isn't another club that has seen players like Mossop, Joel, Sam, Budgie and now Josh leave (as well as Sarge). Mossop and Budgie were young inexperienced players when they left as well and Josh is only 24 so it's not as if we are losing players who are head and shoulders above other players at other clubs. So why us?

[quote[We're not bleeding top players - or that's the view taken by IL and SW at least. There's 4 or 5 they have labelled indispensable, but no more than that.

[/quote]

I think your theory is flawed because we clearly are not paying four players the bulk of the cap as I explained.

So while they may take the view only four or five are essential it won't mean they get the bulk of the cap as there as two of them are exempt from it to a large degree. If they have this attitude they are wrong because they miss the point that fans do not like to see their best players leave and fans don't think we have just four top players. They rate players like Josh, Budgie and so on and want to see them help us win things, not swan off and leave us rebuilding every single season. Some continuity is required.

Also if they do only value for or five players as indispensable and put all the money there then when another top player crops up then we have no chance of keeping him. So get ready for Manfredi and Gildart to leave.

[cpwigan]

For those who say cap is a nothing excuse. I will suggest that you will see one club, possibly two that the big earners will shrink, they already are. Such players and you cannot do it for everybody could be trusted by their clubs to stay and quietly collect much more than any SC ever suggested. It is not something you can constantly do and not for everybody because the moment one breaks rank it would be a frightening mess for the club / RL.

Everybody IMO is gradually moving towards, a few big contracts and trying to bring young players through. Of course; young player who now become a great asset for NRL clubs.

End the cap and you will see far far fewer players leave SL, even a few prime NRL players move to SL. It is nthing IMO to do with IL being tight other than he will not campaign for a bigger cap or no cap. Mt understanding is this Rads with Wane make squad decisions; Rads manages contract negotiations. IL obviously oversee it but if Wane/Rads say we want to retain X player or sign Y player he supports their view.

[DaveO]

You must be watching a different game to me Dave. Last season and this Josh has been far behind Manfredi and likewise last season with Budgie.

Defensively particularly dealing with kicks Josh is way behind. Oddly given your belief Dave, teams target Josh not Budgie, not Manfredi BUT Josh!

To suggest Josh is "way behind" is quite ridiculous. Defensively he is rarely out of position, Manfredi is as he is still learning.

And is case you missed it, Widnes ran at Manfredi (with results) all night and attacked that side of the pitch constantly. If targeting a player shows a sign of weakness how did you miss that? They didn't go anywhere near Josh. So that is your "Josh is weak because he'd targeted" theory debunked. Widnes must have thought Manfredi was terrible!

In the season's where Josh played a similar about of games to his opposite winger (i.e. not when he was injured) he scored more tries than them.

Some people have a very strange view of players. My adage is class is permanent and form is temporary. So despite a poor season when injured and despite poor treatment by Wane I would not expect a player to lose the skills and class previously shown at age 24 and just write them off. My ire is reserved for players who have never shown much in the first place such as Sarge.