What is happening to the Labour Party?

[Owd Codger]

LOL No and never will be. The miners strike left me wishing some Conservatives were dead. The nearest anybody could label me in that direction is an Orwellian Socialist. The problem I have is that I am not blindly a socialist or anything else for that matter. I was brought up to speak my mind and always have just as my father did but he was firnly of the belief all politicians were the same and as bad as easch other and whilst a card carrying member and someone who would never cross a picket line he also felt there was a large slice of self interest in unions and in many individuals too. He held his principles until the day he died, oten to his own detriment financially, advancement etc but he was happy to retain his integrity.

So in an ideal world I would love a Labour government but not one far left. Ultimately, people matter more to me than name tags and labels.

The present Labour Party is no where near being a far left party as a result of Blair and his cronies like Campbell and Mendleson making it into a second right of centre party unable to attract the middle class vote, while at the same time has it has lost many of its traditional voters.

As for Corbyn, what chance has he ever got of becoming a Prime Minister when most of today's Labour MP's and indeed local Councilors are anything but Democratic Socialists of the moderate left like in the great days of the Labour and Trade Union Movement.

We no longer have a effective opposition to the Tories, both in Parliament and also now with odd exception, in the Trade Union Movement.

Now to busy looking after number one instead of the people who voted for them or pay union subscriptions.

Corbyn is too far left for me but more importantly totally devoid of relity and does not understand ordinary people. Momentum and the Loony Londoners have hijacked labour and it will prpbably have to run its course with Labour plummeting and the Conservatives enjoying the freedom and power to do whatever they want. The public will suffer; Not Corbyn, nor McDonald, not Abbot, not Livingstone ETC ETC.

Even when the Conservatives were in the mire, Foot showed how the Labour Left was not electable. IMO, it never will be. Militant is not far from Momentum.

The majority of British people are moderate by nature, political with a very small c and prioritise their 'bread and butter' Under Corbyn when it ccomes to the crunch, ordinary people will desert Labour and rightly so. Ordinary people are not what the current Labour membership represent. In many respects they are as far out of touch as Westminster is but that member has control of a Westminster Part that it totally at odds with them.

Blair and New Labour were far better than Lunatic Labour. It was a pity like every Government they started to forget about ordinary people but did start with a far better understanding of ordinary people and some decent politicians.

For a Tory, you sure have a lot to say about the affairs of the Labour Party.

[Wintergreen]

I find it a bit rich for any Tory to talk about anyone in the Labour Party being a Nazi when the Right Wing of the Tory Party is full of people of that kind of political thinking.

Could not agree more Whelley. Extremes left or right are very much the same. So you agree that the far left (Corbyn) is equally bad. Well done.

And do you admit that you are a Tory or are you one of those Tories who will never admit to being a Tory?

Met quite a few of them in my life!

Far prouder to be a Tory than a Labour supporter who would vote for a monkey if it had a red rosette on.



Nothing worse than a Labour supporter who expects everything on a plate and whines when he/she doesn't have it.

The amusing thing is that some Labour supporters who voted Blair in are the same ones who are now chastising him! You couldn't make it up!

"He was a Tory etc etc"

Well why did you vote for him then?

[Wintergreen]

As for singing the praises of the Trade Union movement....

I am the first to state that they were absolutely vital to Democracy in the country a hundred years ago or so.

However, I have never understood strikes in this day and age.

I genuinely don't understand how they can be justified and would be interested to hear anyone who can defend them.


To me it's very simple.


You do a job, the conditions of that job are set by the employer.

If you find those conditions acceptable you stay. If not, then leave.

Not rocket science.


But no. The TU's stick their oar in and strike (which essentially is attempted blackmail on their behalf).
Strikes are only effective when they impact on others e.g. The Tube network or rail network - i.e. when there is very little choice but to use them and therefore strikes have a very real impact on innocent members of the public.


This is my only fear about rail nationalisation. In principle it makes sense but do we really want to hand over power to the trigger happy unions?

I think not.

[Wiganer Ted]

Anderson was unpopular with Labour Party members in Liverpool and Merseyside in general. He made sure he had a higher profile than the City or the region.

As for TU calling strikes.
Why wouldn't a Rail Union call a strike over Southern Rail and its owner Govia Thameslink?
GT are awful.
The London/Brighton service hasn't had one train on time in the last twelve months.
They have massive staff vacancies as staff have left, some to other Rail Companies others out of the indutry.
They have had their sickness levels double in 12 months which tells of low staff morale.
Three weeks ago they cancelled 341 services a day.
That prompted the then Rail Minister Claire Perry to resign as Minister.
The Governement blames all that on the Unions and their dispute over Driver Only Operation.

The real problem IMO is that DfT awarded the franchise to the wrong Rail Company (GT) and so it has proved.

The strikes are the least of GT and the Gov't problems over Southern rail!

[Wintergreen]

Anderson was unpopular with Labour Party members in Liverpool and Merseyside in general. He made sure he had a higher profile than the City or the region.

As for TU calling strikes.
Why wouldn't a Rail Union call a strike over Southern Rail and its owner Govia Thameslink?
GT are awful.
The London/Brighton service hasn't had one train on time in the last twelve months.
They have massive staff vacancies as staff have left, some to other Rail Companies others out of the indutry.
They have had their sickness levels double in 12 months which tells of low staff morale.
Three weeks ago they cancelled 341 services a day.
That prompted the then Rail Minister Claire Perry to resign as Minister.
The Governement blames all that on the Unions and their dispute over Driver Only Operation.

The real problem IMO is that DfT awarded the franchise to the wrong Rail Company (GT) and so it has proved.

The strikes are the least of GT and the Gov't problems over Southern rail!

That's all very well but you haven't answered the question.

If the workers don't like it, no-one is forcing them to stay. If enough workers leave then the rail company would have to increase the available salaries to attract staff, or cease to exist as a business.

I still haven't had the logic explained to me.

"I want to work and here are the T&C's I want".

Utterly ridiculous.

[cpwigan]

As for singing the praises of the Trade Union movement....

I am the first to state that they were absolutely vital to Democracy in the country a hundred years ago or so.

However, I have never understood strikes in this day and age.

I genuinely don't understand how they can be justified and would be interested to hear anyone who can defend them.


To me it's very simple.


You do a job, the conditions of that job are set by the employer.

If you find those conditions acceptable you stay. If not, then leave.

Not rocket science.


But no. The TU's stick their oar in and strike (which essentially is attempted blackmail on their behalf).
Strikes are only effective when they impact on others e.g. The Tube network or rail network - i.e. when there is very little choice but to use them and therefore strikes have a very real impact on innocent members of the public.


This is my only fear about rail nationalisation. In principle it makes sense but do we really want to hand over power to the trigger happy unions?

I think not.

WG whether you are a Conservative, a Labour, a Liberal Democrat or a whomever; Trade Unions are a vital today to employees as they ever were.

Your simplistic view is far too simple and do not be offended but it suggests a relatively young person with minimal workplace experience.

It is not so simple. The majority of people want to work to earn a living. Many have responsibilities and they cannot simply walk away from a job. If you do walk you need references.

More importantly, workers have rights too. Vital safety and welfare rights that should be met by employers. Union membership protects such rights and in the event of serious workplace accidents that Union membership funds and offers ordinary employees legal assistance that is vital to not only the person injured but the entire workforce.

The Union system, ignore the 'media show' safeguards and enhances the employer - employee relationship and remains vital, perhaps never more so given the pending EU exit.

[Wintergreen]

As for singing the praises of the Trade Union movement....

I am the first to state that they were absolutely vital to Democracy in the country a hundred years ago or so.

However, I have never understood strikes in this day and age.

I genuinely don't understand how they can be justified and would be interested to hear anyone who can defend them.


To me it's very simple.


You do a job, the conditions of that job are set by the employer.

If you find those conditions acceptable you stay. If not, then leave.

Not rocket science.


But no. The TU's stick their oar in and strike (which essentially is attempted blackmail on their behalf).
Strikes are only effective when they impact on others e.g. The Tube network or rail network - i.e. when there is very little choice but to use them and therefore strikes have a very real impact on innocent members of the public.


This is my only fear about rail nationalisation. In principle it makes sense but do we really want to hand over power to the trigger happy unions?

I think not.

WG whether you are a Conservative, a Labour, a Liberal Democrat or a whomever; Trade Unions are a vital today to employees as they ever were.

Your simplistic view is far too simple and do not be offended but it suggests a relatively young person with minimal workplace experience.

It is not so simple. The majority of people want to work to earn a living. Many have responsibilities and they cannot simply walk away from a job. If you do walk you need references.

More importantly, workers have rights too. Vital safety and welfare rights that should be met by employers. Union membership protects such rights and in the event of serious workplace accidents that Union membership funds and offers ordinary employees legal assistance that is vital to not only the person injured but the entire workforce.

The Union system, ignore the 'media show' safeguards and enhances the employer - employee relationship and remains vital, perhaps never more so given the pending EU exit.

Nope, not even close

I won't be so arrogant as to say "I have seen it all", but I have seen an awful lot in my time in the workplace.


Fundamentally it is the employer who takes the risks, not the employee and that is often overlooked.

Sure, you can argue about managerial utility but ultimately they are just employees too. Better paid maybe, but they still share the same issues.

I agree with the safety aspect, but would argue that you do not need a TU in order to do this.

Ultimately no-one owes anyone else a living.

This "us vs them" attitude is what wiped out British manufacturing in the 60's and 70's and has no place in the modern world.

[cpwigan]

Apologies, I thought you were young. Well young, as in 20's.

The moment you create a business or some other public function, anything and everything that happens on your premises is your issue. You may or may not be liable for what happens, you certainly have a responsibility to minimise poor practice / danger on those premises. In turn employees have a responsibility to follow guidelines issued. As you move up the managerial chain your level of responsibility increases and often your wage reflects additional responsibility. TU have always been an important 'vehicle' in maintaining and enhancing all the aforementioned. The end of EU membership places even greater emphasis upon TU to meet that need. Joe/Josie Bloggs is an ordinary person, of varying intelligence, limited legal knowledge and/or support, with limited wealth/financial resources. Everything mentuioned re Joe/Josie Bloggs is enhanced and the best reason why Joe/Josie Bloggs should be a member and pay his/her susbsctiption to a Union.

Unions are a vital communication tool for Joe/Josie Blogg and employers. Collectively working on behalf of employees, Unions save employers time and make their business more productive.

You are right no one owes anyone a living (personally, I think collectively we have a moral duty to ensure that a safety net exists for those less fortunate/disadvantaged than ourselves) I think you judge a society of how the whole society advances not the very few (lest you forget many very wealthy people enjoy a living that they neither earned nor deserved). Most importantly for any employer is that if he treats his employees in a fair and responsible manner it becomes a win / win for employer / employee / society / nation. It is not a mutually exclusive world we live in, it not Mad Max, we are all mutually inclusive otherwise what is the point?

There were / are a multitude of reasons why manufacturing declined in the UK. Us and them was but a tiny part and still exists today. A lack of investment and vision in a new era of manufacturing, greater emphsis of research and development, innovation put at the forefront of society, more emphasis upon education and developing modern day skills, reacting to globalisation. You could go on and on.

Us and them started before the industrial revolution BTW, probably early man/woman which shows how undeveloped the human race is and even better at being selfish and prepared to see neighbours/society go down the pan for an extra £ in his/her pocket. Nothing to do with TUs

[Owd Codger]

As for singing the praises of the Trade Union movement....

I am the first to state that they were absolutely vital to Democracy in the country a hundred years ago or so.

However, I have never understood strikes in this day and age.

I genuinely don't understand how they can be justified and would be interested to hear anyone who can defend them.


To me it's very simple.



You do a job, the conditions of that job are set by the employer.

If you find those conditions acceptable you stay. If not, then leave.

Not rocket science.


But no. The TU's stick their oar in and strike (which essentially is attempted blackmail on their behalf).
Strikes are only effective when they impact on others e.g. The Tube network or rail network - i.e. when there is very little choice but to use them and therefore strikes have a very real impact on innocent members of the public.


This is my only fear about rail nationalisation. In principle it makes sense but do we really want to hand over power to the trigger happy unions?

I think not.

WG whether you are a Conservative, a Labour, a Liberal Democrat or a whomever; Trade Unions are a vital today to employees as they ever were.

Your simplistic view is far too simple and do not be offended but it suggests a relatively young person with minimal workplace experience.

It is not so simple. The majority of people want to work to earn a living. Many have responsibilities and they cannot simply walk away from a job. If you do walk you need references.

More importantly, workers have rights too. Vital safety and welfare rights that should be met by employers. Union membership protects such rights and in the event of serious workplace accidents that Union membership funds and offers ordinary employees legal assistance that is vital to not only the person injured but the entire workforce.

The Union system, ignore the 'media show' safeguards and enhances the employer - employee relationship and remains vital, perhaps never more so given the pending EU exit.

Nope, not even close

I won't be so arrogant as to say "I have seen it all", but I have seen an awful lot in my time in the workplace.


Fundamentally it is the employer who takes the risks, not the employee and that is often overlooked.

Sure, you can argue about managerial utility but ultimately they are just employees too. Better paid maybe, but they still share the same issues.

I agree with the safety aspect, but would argue that you do not need a TU in order to do this.

Ultimately no-one owes anyone else a living.

This "us vs them" attitude is what wiped out British manufacturing in the 60's and 70's and has no place in the modern world.

So Thatcher who no doubt was your hero had nothing to do with the fact that more of our manufacturing base was wiped out by her when in power, than ever was by the unions in the sixties and seventies.

And what kind of living are you enjoying, be it in a job with decent pay and conditions, living on the benefit system, free health service etc. All obtained by the efforts of the Labour and Trade Union Movement over the last century or so and now being destroyed by the Tories with anti union laws and low pay.

During my working life, I came across numerous people with the same 'I'am all right jack attitude' as yourself. Never willing to participate in any industrial action, but always happy to accept any success by the action and always thinking that they are better than others.

[Wintergreen]

WG whether you are a Conservative, a Labour, a Liberal Democrat or a whomever; Trade Unions are a vital today to employees as they ever were.

Your simplistic view is far too simple and do not be offended but it suggests a relatively young person with minimal workplace experience.

It is not so simple. The majority of people want to work to earn a living. Many have responsibilities and they cannot simply walk away from a job. If you do walk you need references.

More importantly, workers have rights too. Vital safety and welfare rights that should be met by employers. Union membership protects such rights and in the event of serious workplace accidents that Union membership funds and offers ordinary employees legal assistance that is vital to not only the person injured but the entire workforce.

The Union system, ignore the 'media show' safeguards and enhances the employer - employee relationship and remains vital, perhaps never more so given the pending EU exit.

Nope, not even close

I won't be so arrogant as to say "I have seen it all", but I have seen an awful lot in my time in the workplace.


Fundamentally it is the employer who takes the risks, not the employee and that is often overlooked.

Sure, you can argue about managerial utility but ultimately they are just employees too. Better paid maybe, but they still share the same issues.

I agree with the safety aspect, but would argue that you do not need a TU in order to do this.

Ultimately no-one owes anyone else a living.

This "us vs them" attitude is what wiped out British manufacturing in the 60's and 70's and has no place in the modern world.

So Thatcher who no doubt was your hero had nothing to do with the fact that more of our manufacturing base was wiped out by her when in power, than ever was by the unions in the sixties and seventies.

And what kind of living are you enjoying, be it in a job with decent pay and conditions, living on the benefit system, free health service etc. All obtained by the efforts of the Labour and Trade Union Movement over the last century or so and now being destroyed by the Tories with anti union laws and low pay.

During my working life, I came across numerous people with the same 'I'am all right jack attitude' as yourself. Never willing to participate in any industrial action, but always happy to accept any success by the action and always thinking that they are better than others.

Another problem with many Lefties. They don't understand that nothing is free.


As for the "I'm alright Jack" comment. You have absolutely no idea about my situation, so kindly refrain from such inflammatory supposition.