Tonights Game v Catalans Dragons

[josie andrews]

Joe Shorrocks has had the same problem as Olly Partington they’ve both been played out of position. Olly was never big enough to play prop and Joe is not a 9. Play them in the their rightful positions and you will get the best out of them. Given the right opportunity Joe can turn into a very good LF. Wish him all the best at Leigh.

I think Shorrocks would make a better LF than Smithies

I think that too

[Charriots Offiah]

I'd agree. After last weeks win at Cas, representing a 96-0 scoreline in two matches, there were - wait for it - a big fat zero posts about the game. After this weeks loss, we're up to 12 pages and counting, and I think I've heard that pretty much every player except Field, French and Marshall need to be shipped out right now (and those players won't be long for the chop either)!

Wiganers are slow to praise (or at least to express moderate satisfaction given the ease of the task) and very quick to moan.

The above opinion is based on these observations and doesn't mean I disagree with all the criticism of the side, however I await the posts saying its not allowed to criticize and I'm a happy clapper etc.

I personally am more interested in our form going into the last 10 games of the season, and I think there is a lot of potential for improvement between now and then. I think our squad has a good balance between attacking threat and defensive solidity, with scope for the coaching staff to tweak that because we have the options now. We do perhaps have a lack of impact in the forwards, but Wane managed multiple GFs without a dominant prop, so that should be manageable. I'm still in wait and see mode.

What options? We will not win the GF unless there is a change in personnel. The CC is a possibility though.

Well. Cust is "better at 9" so we could play him there, or a younger less experienced junior to change the dynamic at the ruck if we wanted to. We have options to replace Cust at stand off in French, field or Hampshire without reaching too far out of player positions.

We can change our second row dynamic between attacking threat with KPP and more solid experience with Isa which we've already done, having strated with KPP this year but had to balance the side with Isa from then on. We also have some youngsters in the wings.

If rotating the middles doesn't lead to improved form, We can use mid season moves to tweak our forward personnel. Miski is out on loan and a negotiated release is definitely possible there, which give us potential scope to upgrade one of the middles overseas.

Overall I'd say our back line has the potential to be one of the best we've seen in a long while and the forwards aren't bad. We've definitely strengthened the.middles in recent years perhaps at the cost of the second row, but I'm not a big believer in Bateman being a big loss this time round. We had a ridiculous number of second/back towers that were being played as middles in past years and I think the balance is better now. Do we have that dominant prop? No. But how many teams do? Saints certainly, but is that a requirement to win. I'd say our squad stands up pretty well to theirs and it's up to the coaching team to get the best out of them this year, that's where my concerns lie right now. Can they do it?

BTW. I remember the fans around me on the kop in the golden years when I was a kid. We were rubbish then. Edwards should be got rid. They're not trying. Not much praise, lots of moaning. I imagine if social media had existed then it would look much like it does now when we lost that odd time.

The powers that be signed Cust to play 6 and, in my view he is a very poor stand-off. He probably is better suited to 9. Field and French have both been tried at half-back before and offered nothing, in fact it disrupted the side. Hampshire, for me, is the logical choice but he is injured. Unlike Cust he has speed, a kicking game and good hands.

We have changed the second row dynamic and it has failed miserably when we have come up against a good pack. Both KPP and Isa should be classed as reserves. That leaves us with a couple of young lads Beardsworth and Nesembe and they are not ready to play first team rugby. The Club made two massive mistakes, letting Nicholson go to Wire and releasing Bateman without a replacement being signed. Whatever anybody thought aboutBateman’s form over the last couple of seasons he was still head and shoulders better than our current choices. Letting him go has weakened the team and the squad.

Miski, I have nothing against the guy he gives 100.% every time he plays but he is a luxury that we can ill afford. There is no way he is going to get into the team before French or Marshall and therefore he is a burden on the salary cap as well as taking a non-federation spot. Replacing him with a decent overseas middle is easier said than done. Quality players don’t become available very often and there is little point bringing a player in who adds nothing more to the team than what we have currently got.

Our back line is decent but the lack of a 6 is a problem and I need convincing about King. The forwards are poor, we are paying good money to two non-federation props who are simply not cutting the mustard, there are British lads who could offer more on less money. I also disagree that we have strengthened our middles in the last few years. Cooper is a good signing but he has very little time left on the clock, Singleton has no go forward and on Thursday his tackling was poor. It is not about having one dominant prop it is about the forwards as a collective. When Walmsley was injured Saints still had the tools to do the job. They haven’t got a massive pack but they do have some good forwards who compliment each other. Our squad is not as good as theirs, a point I hate admitting to. They sign players to compliment their homegrown talent, who they have to date had no problem in retaining . Sironnen, Matautia and Passi are far better than what we have recruited. Having said that, if we could have kept hold of players like Tomkins, Williams, Sutton, Davies, Burgess, Charnley, Sarginson etc., I am sure we would have visited the winners circle more than we have.

Our coaches are paid to get the best out of the players but whether that will be good enough we shall have to see. I still think the CC is our best option as we will be a better team on hard grounds.

BTW, I wasn’t one of those that wanted rid of Giz. I could see the direction the Club was going in.

[Exiled Wiganer]

My thoughts on this:
- the larger pack has an advantage in conditions like that, but greater desire can see a smaller side prevail. It looked to me Catalans wanted it more;
- when we get no go forward, our backs have too little to work with. And that’s down to our props;
- their 9 out classed ours. A non running 9 and ineffective props combined to give us no chance of breaking them;
- we will be much better in better weather, and on dry grounds. That’s how we’re set up; and
- Matty P has done enough to earn our trust, and I will be fascinated to see how he goes about making the best of what he has at his disposal.
(I also think that Catalans showed us that a long term clear eyed assessment of the need for top class recruitment, sticking with a good coach and the right level of professional investment is the way to go. We are years off Saints level, but I think we have the right coach, at leats.)

[Suzieb]

Mike chariots comments hit the nail on the head the best comment that I have read on here he deserves credit for writing it well done chariots

[EagleEyePie]

Joe Shorrocks has had the same problem as Olly Partington they’ve both been played out of position. Olly was never big enough to play prop and Joe is not a 9. Play them in the their rightful positions and you will get the best out of them. Given the right opportunity Joe can turn into a very good LF. Wish him all the best at Leigh.

I think Shorrocks would make a better LF than Smithies

The problem we have with Shorrocks is he's not a strong ball-carrier. If you've got a pack of forwards that can be dominant that isn't an issue, but for us we don't exactly have the luxury of strong running props so we need the best metre-makers we can get.

Smithies might not have the best handling but he's our 3rd highest metre maker after Farrell and Havard and that's important to us. Saying that I'd definitely have Shorrocks in the team as I rate him highly.

He's been playing right side second row for Leigh and their fans seem impressed with him. Maybe Matt Peet might be tempted to play him there for us. He might improve our defence on that edge and he's got the handling ability to get the ball to King and French although I feel second row doesn't get the best out of his ball playing ability.

Personally I'd like to see Shorrocks given a chance at 13 and Smithies tried on the right edge. I know a lot of people don't like the idea of Smithies at second row but the last time he played there was 2021 when Farrell moved to centre and he actually played very well (much better than he did at 13 - he only really impressed when he swapped position). He had a few games making around 100 metres per game, his carries were strong enough to cause defenders problems. He's a better defender than Isa and KPP and I think he could possibly replace a little of what we've lost from Bateman defending that edge.

[Charriots Offiah]

My thoughts on this:
- the larger pack has an advantage in conditions like that, but greater desire can see a smaller side prevail. It looked to me Catalans wanted it more;
- when we get no go forward, our backs have too little to work with. And that’s down to our props;
- their 9 out classed ours. A non running 9 and ineffective props combined to give us no chance of breaking them;
- we will be much better in better weather, and on dry grounds. That’s how we’re set up; and
- Matty P has done enough to earn our trust, and I will be fascinated to see how he goes about making the best of what he has at his disposal.
(I also think that Catalans showed us that a long term clear eyed assessment of the need for top class recruitment, sticking with a good coach and the right level of professional investment is the way to go. We are years off Saints level, but I think we have the right coach, at leats.)

I don’t think we are far behind Saints. We need to keep our good young players and make some quality signings. Saints have a lot of aging players and they are going to find it difficult to replace them. Added to that their young players will be chased by the NRL. They are going to have to pay them big bucks if they want them to stay which will reduce the money they have available for non-federation signings.

[Charriots Offiah]

Joe Shorrocks has had the same problem as Olly Partington they’ve both been played out of position. Olly was never big enough to play prop and Joe is not a 9. Play them in the their rightful positions and you will get the best out of them. Given the right opportunity Joe can turn into a very good LF. Wish him all the best at Leigh.

I think Shorrocks would make a better LF than Smithies

The problem we have with Shorrocks is he's not a strong ball-carrier. If you've got a pack of forwards that can be dominant that isn't an issue, but for us we don't exactly have the luxury of strong running props so we need the best metre-makers we can get.

Smithies might not have the best handling but he's our 3rd highest metre maker after Farrell and Havard and that's important to us. Saying that I'd definitely have Shorrocks in the team as I rate him highly.

He's been playing right side second row for Leigh and their fans seem impressed with him. Maybe Matt Peet might be tempted to play him there for us. He might improve our defence on that edge and he's got the handling ability to get the ball to King and French although I feel second row doesn't get the best out of his ball playing ability.

Personally I'd like to see Shorrocks given a chance at 13 and Smithies tried on the right edge. I know a lot of people don't like the idea of Smithies at second row but the last time he played there was 2021 when Farrell moved to centre and he actually played very well (much better than he did at 13 - he only really impressed when he swapped position). He had a few games making around 100 metres per game, his carries were strong enough to cause defenders problems. He's a better defender than Isa and KPP and I think he could possibly replace a little of what we've lost from Bateman defending that edge.

I think you make a very good case there Eagle. We need second row forwards who can make good metres as our props are unable to do so.

[fozzieskem]

My thoughts on this:
- the larger pack has an advantage in conditions like that, but greater desire can see a smaller side prevail. It looked to me Catalans wanted it more;
- when we get no go forward, our backs have too little to work with. And that’s down to our props;
- their 9 out classed ours. A non running 9 and ineffective props combined to give us no chance of breaking them;
- we will be much better in better weather, and on dry grounds. That’s how we’re set up; and
- Matty P has done enough to earn our trust, and I will be fascinated to see how he goes about making the best of what he has at his disposal.
(I also think that Catalans showed us that a long term clear eyed assessment of the need for top class recruitment, sticking with a good coach and the right level of professional investment is the way to go. We are years off Saints level, but I think we have the right coach, at leats.)

I don’t think we are far behind Saints. We need to keep our good young players and make some quality signings. Saints have a lot of aging players and they are going to find it difficult to replace them. Added to that their young players will be chased by the NRL. They are going to have to pay them big bucks if they want them to stay which will reduce the money they have available for non-federation signings.

At present mate I do feel Wigan are a good way behind saints but the leveller is the rebuild they’ve got coming and if they can keep Welsby and Dodds if Australia comes calling,this is as you rightly point out where the field will even up,Warrington made their choice last season,went for broke and for now it’s paying off though I suspect a few more highs and lows as they settle down,Leeds are still rebuilding so who knows what will happen with them,to me the big test of saints management if how ruthless they’ll be and how to replace Roby,let’s be fair Wigan struggled and still are to replace Lockers it’s no easy task.

[Charriots Offiah]

Well, the club has a chance to do something about it come the end of the season. Singleton, Ellis, Cooper, Mago, Smithies and Isa are all out of contract and KPP is off.

I said at the time it was announced KPP was leaving he should have just gone I don’t like and never have liked this nonsense of seeing your deal out if he wants to leave let them,of the others you mention only Cooper is worth another year at present on form at least.

As for that tonight that was simply unacceptable

Mago had a 3 year deal so this is only his 2nd. Ellis had. 2 year deal.

Mike Cooper (option for another year), Cade Cust (option for another year), Kaide Ellis (option for another year), Toby King (loan), Willie Isa, Patrick Mago (option for another year), Abbas Miski (option for another year), Ramon Silva (option for another year), Brad Singleton, Morgan Smithies, Iain Thornley (option for another year).

https://www.totalrl.com/every-super-lea ... s-to-make/

[Charriots Offiah]

Player Statistics

Singleton - 19 tackles; 3 missed tackles; 6 carries; 32 metres
Powell - 43 tackles; 2 missed tackles; 5 carries; 27 metres
Isa - 13 tackles; 0 missed tackles; 4 carries; 24 metres
Farrell - 37 tackles; 5 missed tackles; 13 carries; 70 metres
Smithies - 62 tackles; 1 missed tackle; 10 carries; 66 metres
Cooper - 17 tackles; 2 missed tackles; 9 carries; 67 metres
Ellis - 13 tackles; 2 missed tackles; 7 carries; 39 metres
Havard - 38 tackles; 2 missed tackles; 15 carries; 87 metres
KPP - 21 tackles; 0 missed tackles; 7 carries; 31 metres
Mago - 13 tackles; 1 missed tackle; 8 carries; 65 metres