Lockers talking us up in the Wigan Observer

[jinkin jimmy]

robjoenz posted:

hayley 04 posted:
Excuse me two eyed warrior who do you think you are? I thought crearivity was not only half backs but hookers and loose forward but oh no on this board only one person can constantly be blamed. It's ridiculous and if you bothered to read what Brian Noble said about Barrett you would have realised that he isn't necessarily coming as stand off but either scrum half or loose forward. Oh dear maybe you're beloved Sean isn't safe either and by the way Geoff if no player is perfect why do you expect perfection from Danny Orr. Bit of a double standard isn't it? Oh and another thing you if you have watched all Wigan's games this year like I have then you'll find Danny Orr does more attacking and certainly more defending than Sean and probably more try saving tackles then anyone other than Chris Ashton. But then again this thread isn't Danny Orr verses Sean O Loughlin. They all play on the same side and no doubt support each other greatly.

Firstly, those that disagree with Hayley, please communicate that in a friendly manner please so as not to upset her.

Hayley, I'm sorry but I think you're fighting a losing battle here. Your arguments had a little more credibility at the beginning of last season when he'd had a year to settle in but he's had more than long enough now. The unfortunate truth is that Danny Orr doesn't fit into the Wigan team.

I am not sure where you see this creative attack from, Dennis Moran was more prominent going forward than Orr. Orr doesn't have the pace we need from stand-off to make a break and he doesn't have the same ball carrying ability that O'Loughlin has. If you watch a lot of our attacking plays, O'Loughlin is at the centre of it. Danny Orr is very often unnoticable on the field.

In defence he is indeed a good tackler, nice and low around the ankles, but I'm afraid Sean O'Loughlin's tackling record is far superior. I have not seen this seasons tackling stats but in 2004 O'Loughlin and Tickle were our top tacklers. Sean has continued in this vein of form since he has returned. Unfortunately his error rate seems to have increased, which becomes so much more obvious when he does so much work.

As for Danny Orr being slated on here by people that don't like him, I think it's more a case of people having lost their patience with him over the last two years. On this message board this season that has been more criticism for Ian Millward, Maurice Lindsay, Dave Whelan, David Vaealiki, Dennis Moran, Kevin Brown and Mark Calderwood so you can't say he's been pinpointed for abuse.

You mean in a friendly manner like this, Rob?

Danny Orr will always be blamed for everything that goes wrong and jinkin jimmy and doveoverdave can't even give a good enough arguement for why they constantly blame him and not the captain. Just shows how pathetic they're opinions really are

This was her response to a post I placed on here addressed to DaveO. I have also taken the trouble to highlight her tone in responding to TEW.

I wouldn't be a moderator if Mike paid me, but since you presumably volunteered please take time to ensure you are consistent. For example, many on here feel free to change WNAC to WANC (very funny) but no-one seems to be worried about him being offended.[/b]

[jinkin jimmy]

Flash posted:

For example, many on here feel free to change WNAC to WANC (very funny) but no-one seems to be worried about him being offended.

Pesonally, I was rather hoping he would be....

I'm sure you were!! My question, however, is why we have to take flak from Hayley and not give it back yet WNAC gets it on a regular basis?

I don't know WNAC and was as wound up by his spamming activities the other day as everyone else, but IIRC he doesn't actually go in for individual comment or abuse (however mild).

Contrast this with Hayley. If you dare voice a different opinion she feels free to comment with whatever insult she feels appropriate, even when the comments made were not addressed to her!

Anyway, it is nice to see not one single bit of support for her pro-Orr leanings!!

[robjoenz]

Fair point Jimmy, I felt she was a little provoked and I didn't think you and DOD were as sensitive as Hayley is , but you're quite right. I apologise.

Hayley, and everybody else for that matter, please be constructive in your disagreements and don't resort to being abusive.

Cheers,
Rob

[standishcat]

don't resort to being abusive

Can this be applied to DOD and ian.birchall too?

Not to rope Ian in, but he often snarls when he gets going. And it's not very appropriate.

If you dare voice a different opinion she feels free to comment with whatever insult she feels appropriate, even when the comments made were not addressed to her!

Again, DOD does this too and it's often quite intimidating. And if we're accusing Hayley of being a one-trick pony, I think we can accuse WNAC of being one of these too!

But not to contradict Jimmy wholly, I do agree with his and DOD's arguments about Lockers. Lockers is one of the best around. Lets face it, this season hasn't exactly been a picnic for all the players.

[cpwigan]

Danny Orr why, how I do not know but it has not worked which is indicated by Noble signing a 6 and trying to sign a 7 for next season.

Dave O, I may be wrong and if I am I apologise but you have not played much rugby league have you. The coach and the captain have a role to play on match day but their success is largely dependent on A) The quality of the whole team and B) Winning starts on Monday... work in training. It is a practical impossibility for any captain let alone Lockers to correct somebody who takes up the wrong position in the defensive line because the game is simply too quick and crowd noise makes it impossible to bellow instructions. I watched Paul Anderson try to talk to a team mate 10 yards away getting ready for a kick off. He was screaming and the team mate could not hear him. Eventually Anderson had to go and stand next to him to talk to him. The collective success of any team is down to individuals making the right decisions based on training.

It appears that a Wigan captain is now jusdged on how well he screams at his team. Shouting / screaming it seems = good captaincy. Bring back Alex Murphy eh. Strikes me shouting and screaming is more for affect to look good in front of gullible supporters.

During a match, players are following a game plan. They can take in 2 or 3 instructions. When do they take those instructions? After tries have been scored. Who is best served to see any adjustments that need to be made? The coach or the captain. THE COACH. What does he do. He SEND A RUNNER TO GIVE HIS INSTRUCTIONS. Should the captain tell said runner to keep his mouth shut whilst he screams and shouts to make himself look good to supporters. Or should he make sure everybody is quiet and listening to the runner tells the players what THE COACH THINKS.

SCREAMING SHOUTING went out the window with messrs Murphy and Fox. Do you think Noble rants and raves. I've known many a coach hardly say anything. Famously Jack Gibson said nothing at HT when Parra were losing a GF. They then went on to win it.

Ultimately YOU NO I, NOR ANYBODY can truly judge Lockers the captain. His teammates can and the Coach can. Still just think if Lockers shouted and screamed he'd be rated a great captain.

[GeoffN]

hayley 04 posted:
Excuse me two eyed warrior who do you think you are? I thought crearivity was not only half backs but hookers and loose forward but oh no on this board only one person can constantly be blamed.

Because only one in those categories is not being creative. Higham, Godwin, O'Loughlin, and even Moran, have created more tries this season than has Orr.

It's ridiculous and if you bothered to read what Brian Noble said about Barrett you would have realised that he isn't necessarily coming as stand off but either scrum half or loose forward. Oh dear maybe you're beloved Sean isn't safe either and by the way Geoff if no player is perfect why do you expect perfection from Danny Orr.

I don't expect perfection from him, just creating and/or scoring tries. He isn't.

Bit of a double standard isn't it? Oh and another thing you if you have watched all Wigan's games this year like I have then you'll find Danny Orr does more attacking and certainly more defending than Sean and probably more try saving tackles then anyone other than Chris Ashton. But then again this thread isn't Danny Orr verses Sean O Loughlin. They all play on the same side and no doubt support each other greatly.

I've always said he is excellent in defence. The fact remains, though, that anyone on here could point to lots of specific tries set up/scored by the likes of O'Loughlin, Moran, Godwin, Brown and Higham. You can't say the same for Orr.
To answer another of your points, I don't just criticise Orr - I've also criticised Moran, Brown, Vaialiki, Tickle and several others on a regular basis, it's just that you don't seem to notice anyone else being criticised.

[jinkin jimmy]

robjoenz posted:
Fair point Jimmy, I felt she was a little provoked and I didn't think you and DOD were as sensitive as Hayley is , but you're quite right. I apologise.

Hayley, and everybody else for that matter, please be constructive in your disagreements and don't resort to being abusive.

Cheers,
Rob

[DaveO]

cpwigan posted:
Dave O, I may be wrong and if I am I apologise but you have not played much rugby league have you. The coach and the captain have a role to play on match day but their success is largely dependent on A) The quality of the whole team and B) Winning starts on Monday... work in training. It is a practical impossibility for any captain let alone Lockers to correct somebody who takes up the wrong position in the defensive line because the game is simply too quick and crowd noise makes it impossible to bellow instructions.

If you read my reply to JJ you will see I suggested he had plenty of time to birarte his team mates for lack of effort in defence while stood under the sticks! I was not suggesting he do this while play was going on.

It is obvious the captain can only insturct his players at certain times of the game i.e. at stoppages. Lockers does not do this.

It appears that a Wigan captain is now jusdged on how well he screams at his team. Shouting / screaming it seems = good captaincy. Bring back Alex Murphy eh. Strikes me shouting and screaming is more for affect to look good in front of gullible supporters.

So was Farrell playing to the gallery? Does standing to one side saying nothing equal good captaincy after another try has gone in?

He does not have to scream and shout in these circumstances. He could offer encouragement to the younger players or the whole team. A pat on the back or tell them to keep their heads up etc. It is not all about balling and shouting. How about motivation? Encoutagment to hold on for a win if we are in front by a point 2 minutes from the end? That osrt of thing.

I don't see Lockers doing any of this.

It has been said in other captain debates that Lockers is a captain who leads by example while others lead by command. Fair enough he sets a good example by busting a gut but so far the team have not been following his example have they?

If they are not then it is up to him to try something else to get them to pick their game up.

During a match, players are following a game plan. They can take in 2 or 3 instructions.

How many times has it been said by our players after matches "we didn't follow the game plan"?

Several at least and that being so why hasn't Lockers got them back following it?

When do they take those instructions? After tries have been scored. Who is best served to see any adjustments that need to be made? The coach or the captain. THE COACH. What does he do. He SEND A RUNNER TO GIVE HIS INSTRUCTIONS. Should the captain tell said runner to keep his mouth shut whilst he screams and shouts to make himself look good to supporters. Or should he make sure everybody is quiet and listening to the runner tells the players what THE COACH THINKS.

Oh come on! Captain DO instruct their players under the sticks. It happens all the time and we have Orr laying the law down on a weekly basis. What is he up to then?

SCREAMING SHOUTING went out the window with messrs Murphy and Fox. Do you think Noble rants and raves. I've known many a coach hardly say anything. Famously Jack Gibson said nothing at HT when Parra were losing a GF. They then went on to win it.

Unless I am blind I spent years watching Farrell scream and shout at players. I have watched Orr lay the law down this season and in any case as I said it is not just a matter of screaming and shouting but motivating the players and leading.

I have never yet in any walk of life including sport seen a leader remain silent when the chips are down.

They may not rant and rave but they certainly take charge of the situation and exert their authority.

Ultimately YOU NO I, NOR ANYBODY can truly judge Lockers the captain. His teammates can and the Coach can. Still just think if Lockers shouted and screamed he'd be rated a great captain.

Given you seem to think silence is golden I could say you rate great captains for keepng their mouths shut. I am sure you don't think that and I hope it is obvious I think there is more to a captain opening his mouth than ranting and raving.

Dave

[cpwigan]

Did Faz shout and scream regularly? No

Do you want me to tell you what he said under the sticks in the first half of the trie nations final when Aus were destroying GB. "Help, I'm a celebrity, get me outta here"

[DaveO]

cpwigan posted:
Did Faz shout and scream regularly? No

Do you want me to tell you what he said under the sticks in the first half of the trie nations final when Aus were destroying GB. "Help, I'm a celebrity, get me outta here"

Sorry cpw, but the above is a poor reply!

The fact is Lockers stands quietly under the sticks and doesn't say boo to a goose when what is required is at least some input from him. It does not have to be a rant as I said.

Dave