Six month ban for Flower

[cpwigan]

Your alternative Mike / WF ?

History has always shown that if sufficient people stand up, complain, campaign it more readily brings about change than compliance.

Ideally, the players Union should be leading such a campaign. I presume Ben is a member, if he is I would stop the direct debit if I was in his shoes because already the Union has failed to protect its members.

[Mike]

If we complain now - why have we done so?

Thats right because one of our player just got banned. Credibility = 0.

Far better to complain when an opponents player has just been banned for too long, perhaps even against us. Far great credibility and impact.

Now is not the time for us.

Now if we could get St Helens to make a statement about consistency, then we might be able to support that and get Hull KR and several others on board.

Maybe you could lobby them on our behlaf?

[Mike]

Your alternative Mike / WF ?

History has always shown that if sufficient people stand up, complain, campaign it more readily brings about change than compliance.

Ideally, the players Union should be leading such a campaign. I presume Ben is a member, if he is I would stop the direct debit if I was in his shoes because already the Union has failed to protect its members.

I've already made one concrete suggestion. Public video database of all grades/charges/bans/committee members. Allowing quick comparison of decisions and giving clubs a database to represent themselves against.

We are taking steps towards accountability already. After all you've been able to complain at length about grading/tariffs/panel's comments etc which we wouldn't have had been able to see previously.

[cpwigan]

Your alternative Mike / WF ?

History has always shown that if sufficient people stand up, complain, campaign it more readily brings about change than compliance.

Ideally, the players Union should be leading such a campaign. I presume Ben is a member, if he is I would stop the direct debit if I was in his shoes because already the Union has failed to protect its members.

I've already made one concrete suggestion. Public video database of all grades/charges/bans/committee members. Allowing quick comparison of decisions and giving clubs a database to represent themselves against.

We are taking steps towards accountability already. After all you've been able to complain at length about grading/tariffs/panel's comments etc which we wouldn't have had been able to see previously.

The clubs already have access to a database of every game recorded that still exists.

Procedures / Penalties in any sport Mike have been available at all levels for decades, possibly a century. The only difference is they are now online as well as in printed form.

The first step, my suggestion is to create a significantly better On Field Compliance Document. Surely that is your start point, in any sport.

Your suggestion is pointless until you take the first basic steps. Surely that is common sense?

[TrueBlueWarrior]

But Mike the discipline procedures should have been sorted out years ago, they have been inconsistent for a long time, the Flower incident just highlighted it further and if problems had been sorted along time ago the Flower incident would have been managed better. How long do the people that can actually demand change wait for? Till Flowers ban is up? Give it another season? Till the cows come home?

CHANGE IS NEEDED NOW AND THE PEOPLE THAT CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT SHOULD BE DOING EXACTLY THAT, INFACT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE A LONG TIME AGO!!

[Mike]

Public being the key word here.

Transparency and accountability. You need to work towards increasing both. Then you have a more and more consistent system. That's what I would do.

You would rewrite rules that are not being applied consistently.

[cpwigan]

Public being the key word here.

Transparency and accountability. You need to work towards increasing both. Then you have a more and more consistent system. That's what I would do.

You would rewrite rules that are not being applied consistently.

NO, I said the first step is to have rules / guidelines that work. If something is garbage your idea only creates something that is consistently garbage. 1st step surely is to get the correct procedures in writing 2nd step educate all 'partners' or is that too logical?

[Wigan_forever1985]

The problem is everytime you involve a human there is a drop in consistency, however this can negated with increased accountability.

I like mikes idea but i would maybe take it one step further, during the challenge cup matches the video ref had to explain their decisions as they made them. I thought this was really good as it gave the fans an idea of what they were looking for and what they were seeing.

Maybe a similar set up, were the videos are shown with a running explanation from the panel of what they are seeing. I know we get a written explanation but i think it would be better if it was real time with the video. I would introduce a challenge system off the back of that, where by clubs can use videos from previous incidents to challenge the sentence or conviction. This should be reviewed by a different panel.

It would be good to see objectivity to, so maybe you get an independent to sit on the panel, maybe a referee from another sport - you may say "well they have no knowledge of our game" but maybe that would be for the better as its much more of an objective input.

I agree with CP on pushing the standards in officiating forward but there is a fine line, a few years back EVERYTHING went on report because ref's were too scared to make on the pitch decisions incase they got it wrong. That changed and now more are made on field but by the nature they will make mistakes. I like the idea of a coach/tennis style challenge used as safety net for both teams and the ref too.

[markill]

The problem is everytime you involve a human there is a drop in consistency, however this can negated with increased accountability.

I like mikes idea but i would maybe take it one step further, during the challenge cup matches the video ref had to explain their decisions as they made them. I thought this was really good as it gave the fans an idea of what they were looking for and what they were seeing.

Maybe a similar set up, were the videos are shown with a running explanation from the panel of what they are seeing. I know we get a written explanation but i think it would be better if it was real time with the video. I would introduce a challenge system off the back of that, where by clubs can use videos from previous incidents to challenge the sentence or conviction. This should be reviewed by a different panel.

It would be good to see objectivity to, so maybe you get an independent to sit on the panel, maybe a referee from another sport - you may say "well they have no knowledge of our game" but maybe that would be for the better as its much more of an objective input.

Sensible suggestions. Not sure we need the voiceover stuff with the video (you would actually need two, 1 from the MRP making the charge, and one from the tribunal issuing the punishment) but it should be put next to the charge details on the RFL website. The actual tribunal decision doesn't only take into account the incident though we have to remember.

[sheepsteeth]

But Mike the discipline procedures should have been sorted out years ago, they have been inconsistent for a long time, the Flower incident just highlighted it further and if problems had been sorted along time ago the Flower incident would have been managed better. How long do the people that can actually demand change wait for? Till Flowers ban is up? Give it another season? Till the cows come home?

CHANGE IS NEEDED NOW AND THE PEOPLE THAT CAN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT SHOULD BE DOING EXACTLY THAT, INFACT THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE A LONG TIME AGO!!

several chairmen have spoken up about the RFL disciplinary this season so there is some evidence that a stance will be made soon.

However, can you not accept that if IL had made that stand now he'd have been a lone voice and the other chairmen who have the same issues would not have backed him?

They would not have backed him because they would be accused by many that they too were condoning BF's actions. We'd then have been left with what happen during this seasons "revolt" which was with people saying "Wigan are only interested in themselves" the RFL would then have remained unchallenged on this issue for a long long time.