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Re: Rocky
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:04 pm
by markill
cpwigan wrote:markill wrote:So what did Ryan Hampshire make of all this bickering? He started it!
Anyway, someone asked "which rule changes?". I think there was a presumption we would be going ahead with fewer interchanges in 2016 but it looks like we will stick with 10 until at least the year after.
I can't really understand why Hampshire is so loved as an unproven senior half back personally. He could be every bit as good a full back as a half back at this level, where you get less time and space to reach your support speed and when you do you need to run around bigger and better players and run away from faster ones than you do at u19s. Given the choice of him or Williams as a player I think will be best in 5 years I'd say Williams. I'm not having a go at him, I just think we presume he'll be best note as a kid in the grown ups team where he was best as a kid in the kids team. As long as he's still at the club then we'll hopefully see him progress, but I can't help but think it's not yet his time.
You could replace your comments Mark with Tim Smith and Sam Tomkins. Doing the opposite of what you suggest then was right then as it is more than likely right now. How about, Rocky and George are given 6 games together as half backs next season? Unless you give them the opportunity you will never know.
No issue whatsoever in giving them some games together. I've also no issue with giving Rocky games at full back though. Don't really buy this 'not his position' stuff. Similarly I've said plenty of times put Rocky on the bench to give him a go occasionally in the halves or even at dummy half (but defend wide, Burrow style) to get him in the game. Right now he isn't a great player, he's a top prospect, and he should snap up every opportunity to play wherever he gets that - being that he is unproven at this senior level as a half/playmaker. He hasn't really done that consistently enough. His best chance this year he was not good enough unfortunately, leading to Bowen coming back in. Then he was defended for not playing his 'natural' position. Well plenty have come through as full backs at senior grade, including some of the greats like Lockyer and even Edwards to an extent. I hope he himself doesn't think he had to play half now and that's the be all and end all.
Re: Rocky
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:09 pm
by cpwigan
Lockyer was a fullback Mark which makes your comments interesting because Lockyer started his chosen position for his early career as did Sam Tomkins in the first part of his career.
Shaun Edwards is a different era really. He was put on the wing largely to protect him from thuggery which was then acceptable. The counter argument would be Andy Greg but Widnes had the enforcers to ensure he was kept healthy as a youngster.
It will be interesting to see what happens but the way I look at it, one season of learning curve / adjustment for several with an outstanding half back pair is a better deal than a few seasons with / arguing 1 young halfback needs an more experienced partner even if their combination is poorer.
Re: Rocky
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 7:18 pm
by markill
cpwigan wrote:Lockyer was a fullback Mark which makes your comments interesting because Lockyer started his chosen position for his early career as did Sam Tomkins in the first part of his career.
Shaun Edwards is a different era really. He was put on the wing largely to protect him from thuggery which was then acceptable. The counter argument would be Andy Greg but Widnes had the enforcers to ensure he was kept healthy as a youngster.
It will be interesting to see what happens but the way I look at it, one season of learning curve / adjustment for several with an outstanding half back pair is a better deal than a few seasons with / arguing 1 young halfback needs an more experienced partner even if their combination is poorer.
All I'm saying is Hampshire may be a fullback in senior grades at this time of his career. If that is so, he needs to accept that. We need to accept that. It doesn't stop him from being a half a year or more down the line. It isn't massively relevant to me that he played mostly 6 in junior grades either, in fact that's good because he got to touch the ball more, in space that you get at that level, which is similar to space you get as full back at senior level.
Re: Rocky
Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:28 pm
by cpwigan
markill wrote:cpwigan wrote:Lockyer was a fullback Mark which makes your comments interesting because Lockyer started his chosen position for his early career as did Sam Tomkins in the first part of his career.
Shaun Edwards is a different era really. He was put on the wing largely to protect him from thuggery which was then acceptable. The counter argument would be Andy Greg but Widnes had the enforcers to ensure he was kept healthy as a youngster.
It will be interesting to see what happens but the way I look at it, one season of learning curve / adjustment for several with an outstanding half back pair is a better deal than a few seasons with / arguing 1 young halfback needs an more experienced partner even if their combination is poorer.
All I'm saying is Hampshire may be a fullback in senior grades at this time of his career. If that is so, he needs to accept that. We need to accept that. It doesn't stop him from being a half a year or more down the line. It isn't massively relevant to me that he played mostly 6 in junior grades either, in fact that's good because he got to touch the ball more, in space that you get at that level, which is similar to space you get as full back at senior level.
I understand what you are saying Mark and arguably because fullback has changed it does have more similarities. Nevertheless, at first grade you tend to find history shows that players are more successful when they start their first grade career in their common lower grade junior position. Hence why when people use Lockyer and Sam T examples they are wrong to do so.
If the norm is for players that have successful careers that begin in their normal junior position then it is somewhat illogical to defy what has been the norm throughout the history of the sport.
Switching first grade positions later is the norm E.G Ellery; not the opposite.
Re: Rocky
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 12:12 am
by markill
I understand your point. I also think 2 years ago Rocky would have played more u19s at full back if he hasn't got injured. So would have been coming through in a position he'd played enough in anyway. He's made to be a modern day full back and all he had to do was learn to catch. He's in the mould of so many that you see play there that you know have or will move to 6. It's disappointing to feel that he hasn't really given it a fair shot to be like Milford,Barba,Lockyer etc. That's the impression I get.
Re: Rocky
Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:47 pm
by Panchitta Marra
markill wrote:cpwigan wrote:Lockyer was a fullback Mark which makes your comments interesting because Lockyer started his chosen position for his early career as did Sam Tomkins in the first part of his career.
Shaun Edwards is a different era really. He was put on the wing largely to protect him from thuggery which was then acceptable. The counter argument would be Andy Greg but Widnes had the enforcers to ensure he was kept healthy as a youngster.
It will be interesting to see what happens but the way I look at it, one season of learning curve / adjustment for several with an outstanding half back pair is a better deal than a few seasons with / arguing 1 young halfback needs an more experienced partner even if their combination is poorer.
All I'm saying is Hampshire may be a fullback in senior grades at this time of his career. If that is so, he needs to accept that. We need to accept that. It doesn't stop him from being a half a year or more down the line. It isn't massively relevant to me that he played mostly 6 in junior grades either, in fact that's good because he got to touch the ball more, in space that you get at that level, which is similar to space you get as full back at senior level.
The half back pairing throughout their playing career was very successful, is it therefore not worth a try to see if it can continue at SL level. Both Smith and Williams are 7's from the majority of their careers.