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Bring back ian millward with whelan and lindsay Sure we didnt get much negativity now as them days.

thegimble wrote: Every thing that goes wrong is Wane's fault and everything he did ok was inherited. That is the way I read it.

Which is the opposite of some who seem to think when things go wrong it's all the players fault and Wane can't be blamed for that but yet want to give him the credit for winning the double.

If he gets the credit for that then he can't dodge the criticism when things go wrong.

Unless you want to change how pro sport in general works Wane as coach will carry the can eventually if success does not come. The failure will be deemed "his fault" and will cost him his job.

As for your last part for most would run the club to the ground as it almost was done once.

No they wouldn't. How do you draw that conclusion? Leeds and us operate under the same salary cap and both now have their entire first team squads wages paid by the money from Sky TV.

The complaints are about why we have failed to match Leeds in recent years despite the salary cap and operating in the same financial environment. I have not seen anyone advocating breaking the bank. The only complaint I have seen relating to wages is IL making Sam our marquee signing when we were already going to accommodate his wages even if that rule had not been passed which is a fair criticism if you ask me.

DaveO

First part I agree with no one is exempt from criticism if we fail. From top to the coaches. Problem is Wane seems to get a lot more than anyone else. Regardless of the result on Saturday season for me was poor. Wane needs to be held more to account on results during the season than Saturday's result.

Some performances this season have been shocking as bad if at times worse than 2006. If he carries on and we go out early in the CC next season he will be gone if we do not win the GF.

Second part we would get into the same issues we had under DW and Maurice in the 2000's we would sign 2 to 3 very good players and the squad would really struggle. We do need to get rid of players like Powell, Tomkins (Logan) and others who just prop up and take a wage. That money should go onto a quality player.

But if you want quality you will have to lose a few players or only give 2 years contracts to academy players coming through. You can not have it both ways have a big squad with 2 to 3 star players in it. Leeds got lucky the got 4 players through at the right time and signed quality to go with them. For what ever reason they stayed loyal to Leeds and were paid well for it. But from 2010 onwards were are on about level with them on trophies won. I regard 2010 when we became challengers.

they have 3 GF 2 CC and 1 LL
we have 2 GF 2 CC and 2 LL

As for the marquee player did the differential in the amount not on the cap from Sam's wage not go on an improved contract for MM. I do think IL has alluded he would use the gap to improve players pay. Or if the ruling did not happen we would have to lose players.

thegimble wrote:DaveO

First part I agree with no one is exempt from criticism if we fail. From top to the coaches. Problem is Wane seems to get a lot more than anyone else. Regardless of the result on Saturday season for me was poor. Wane needs to be held more to account on results during the season than Saturday's result.

Some performances this season have been shocking as bad if at times worse than 2006. If he carries on and we go out early in the CC next season he will be gone if we do not win the GF.

Second part we would get into the same issues we had under DW and Maurice in the 2000's we would sign 2 to 3 very good players and the squad would really struggle. We do need to get rid of players like Powell, Tomkins (Logan) and others who just prop up and take a wage. That money should go onto a quality player.

But if you want quality you will have to lose a few players or only give 2 years contracts to academy players coming through. You can not have it both ways have a big squad with 2 to 3 star players in it. Leeds got lucky the got 4 players through at the right time and signed quality to go with them. For what ever reason they stayed loyal to Leeds and were paid well for it. But from 2010 onwards were are on about level with them on trophies won. I regard 2010 when we became challengers.

they have 3 GF 2 CC and 1 LL
we have 2 GF 2 CC and 2 LL

As for the marquee player did the differential in the amount not on the cap from Sam's wage not go on an improved contract for MM. I do think IL has alluded he would use the gap to improve players pay. Or if the ruling did not happen we would have to lose players.

well said

Madge trophies one of each 2 seasons.
SW trophies one of each 4 seasons,
plus 2 bunches of flowers thrown from the winner's podium!

Wandering Warrior wrote:Madge trophies one of each 2 seasons.
SW trophies one of each 4 seasons,
plus 2 bunches of flowers thrown from the winner's podium!

Eh?

Wane might have four trophies but only because of the LLS and they all happened over two years ago.

If he had a trophy a year for each of those four years (unless it was just the LLS every time) his position would look far rosier in the eyes of fans who are frustrated about the last two trophy-less seasons.

Winning something every year is far better than looking back and saying we won the double.

thegimble wrote:DaveO

First part I agree with no one is exempt from criticism if we fail. From top to the coaches. Problem is Wane seems to get a lot more than anyone else. Regardless of the result on Saturday season for me was poor. Wane needs to be held more to account on results during the season than Saturday's result.

Some performances this season have been shocking as bad if at times worse than 2006. If he carries on and we go out early in the CC next season he will be gone if we do not win the GF.

To an extent I agree. Especially with this bit "Some performances this season have been shocking as bad if at times worse than 2006."

Some of the home wins were dire as well e.g. v Salford was one of the worst RL games I have ever seen Wigan play.

Were you and I differ (probably) is I think what went on this season in that regard is just carrying on from the season before.

There was plenty wrong then similar to what happened this season and rather than wait to see if we go out of the CC early again, when we went out (and the manner in which we did) to HKR this time then if I was IL I'd have been looking for a new coach from then on.

To save himself Wane would have had to win the GF this year, not next.

Second part we would get into the same issues we had under DW and Maurice in the 2000's we would sign 2 to 3 very good players and the squad would really struggle. We do need to get rid of players like Powell, Tomkins (Logan) and others who just prop up and take a wage. That money should go onto a quality player.

We can't get into trouble because of the salary cap. We get paid the full wack from Sky. It is all about how we use the money. I don't see players like Powell going anywhere and while Leeds have signed some experience already to cover for Peacock we look to the kids again.

But if you want quality you will have to lose a few players or only give 2 years contracts to academy players coming through. You can not have it both ways have a big squad with 2 to 3 star players in it. Leeds got lucky the got 4 players through at the right time and signed quality to go with them. For what ever reason they stayed loyal to Leeds and were paid well for it. But from 2010 onwards were are on about level with them on trophies won. I regard 2010 when we became challengers.

Leeds have got several players in their side who came through their system. They have also signed players to balance this out.

Without a proper reserve grade competition I think Leeds have worked out how to succeed given the way the game is organized these days better than we have.

I don't think the way the game is structured having a lot of young players or projects in a 30 odd man squad is the way to go.

I do think you need a smaller squad with some more experience and quality brought in.

If injuries ruin your chances one year due to a smaller squad then that is just the way it is.

As for the marquee player did the differential in the amount not on the cap from Sam's wage not go on an improved contract for MM. I do think IL has alluded he would use the gap to improve players pay. Or if the ruling did not happen we would have to lose players.

I don't know about MM but as Sam was coming anyway it's a bit sad if MM wasn't going to get a pay rise if the rule hadn't been agreed!

I think more likely is had the rule not happened we'd have lost players but as we have both said we do have players who are taking up a wage and offer little. So with the rule in place I'd have preferred us still to lose some players and have Sam and a marquee player.

It must be getting close to a time when some players have to be cut loose. The ones in the first team squad who rarely get games have to be at rick from those coming up from the production line.

Why do we go the route we do and have so many young and project type players in our squad? Is that Wane or IL?

It's obviously a bit of both but I am certain Wane is very loyal to the young players maybe to the detriment of the team as whole when some clearly not good enough are kept on.

DaveO

I listened to that Salford game and Bilko was very close to tears in the first half.

Regarding smaller squad I actually agree we have too many young players that needed cutting away much earlier. Greenwood for 1 should have been gone 4 years ago. Whilst players like Sutton needs to play regular very soon.

The rule re marquee for me should be ensuring 1 class player and that you can pay more to the better players in your squad. I would like to think that others in every team can benefit from this.

Going forward for Leeds is going to get really interesting not for this season but beyond. The spine of the team in terms of experience will start degrading and you see how that has had a massive impact at Wire. You can sign class players no guarantee that they will play well or stay if the do and get an offer back in the NRL.

You can not depend on signing players of NRL to replace quality players leaving all the time. Wire have tried that and had a real bad 2 years since 2013.

DaveO wrote:

Wandering Warrior wrote:Madge trophies one of each 2 seasons.
SW trophies one of each 4 seasons,
plus 2 bunches of flowers thrown from the winner's podium!

Eh?

Wane might have four trophies but only because of the LLS and they all happened over two years ago.

If he had a trophy a year for each of those four years (unless it was just the LLS every time) his position would look far rosier in the eyes of fans who are frustrated about the last two trophy-less seasons.

Winning something every year is far better than looking back and saying we won the double.

Dave I was demonstrating SW had won the same amount of pots as Madge but twice as long in the job and still counting!
And we mustn't forget the flowers that the bridesmaids hope to get!
We are on the same page, believe me.

thegimble wrote:DaveO

I listened to that Salford game and Bilko was very close to tears in the first half.

It was truly awful and the only reason we won was because Matty Bowen took the game to Salford spotting what needed to be done. No one else stepped up and it certainly wasn't the result of a half time team talk from Wane.

You can not depend on signing players of NRL to replace quality players leaving all the time. Wire have tried that and had a real bad 2 years since 2013.

You can't rely on producing a squad entirely yourself from the juniors either. That has never worked.

It's a matter of balance and I think Leeds with several young players of their own plus some experience brought in have this correct. I don't think they are relying on picking up players from the NRL but rather if a good one becomes available they sign them.

Our signings in comparison seem as cheap as chips and opportunistic and there even seems to be a policy not to even look at what is available in the NRL.

That has never been "the Wigan way" as Wigan has always been a club with a view that it doesn't matter where you are from if you are a good player.