Enough

[GeoffN]

Fraggle posted:

mickw posted:
if the likes of leigh are already dying then to plough money in to french rugby which is already dead , is a great idea a few part time teams playing to barla standards is hardly a hot bed of rugby league. when the handouts and favours run out they will disappear in 2009 they`ll be out anyway!

I'm sorry Mick, I think you're very blinkered here and being rather insulting to French rugby league. The sport is very well established in France, it's got more than 70 years of history behind it. It *IS* a hotbed for the sport, far more so than many areas in this country where people insist need to have SL teams (eg. Cumbria). BARLA standard teams do not get through to the latter stages of the Challenge Cup, the top teams (excluding the Dragons) are at least NL1 standard as results have shown when the likes of UTC, Toulouse, Pia and Villeneuve have taken part these last few years. Are you sure you're not confusing matters with Russia, where club rugby is still at a pretty low standard? To suggest that French RL is "dead" is quite frankly ludicrous.

A question - have you been on any of the (so far few) away trips to Perpignan? I was there with Wigan in 2002, and I defy anyone who was there to say that the 8000 crowd who turned out to support their team were not enthusiastic. Yes, 8000 for a game UTC must have known they were going to lose badly, but still pulled in bigger crowds than Salford and almost as many as St Helens did this past weekend.

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with your views on French rugby league, and will be very happy if Les Catalans can make a better impression on the league next year. Even so, with 7 victories under their belts they've hardly floundered this year, have been more successful than other teams who have been relegated in the past and as far as I'm concerned they more than deserve their place in the league.

Just to back up Fraggles points, Catalans already have 14 points this season (and may get more). That's many more than Leigh, Castleford, Halifax, Salford, Hudds, Shudds, Hudds, Hudds, Oldham & Workington, the last 10 teams to finish bottom. They also are drawing better crowds than any of those did.

[Wigan Watcher]

GeoffN posted:

Fraggle posted:

mickw posted:
if the likes of leigh are already dying then to plough money in to french rugby which is already dead , is a great idea a few part time teams playing to barla standards is hardly a hot bed of rugby league. when the handouts and favours run out they will disappear in 2009 they`ll be out anyway!

I'm sorry Mick, I think you're very blinkered here and being rather insulting to French rugby league. The sport is very well established in France, it's got more than 70 years of history behind it. It *IS* a hotbed for the sport, far more so than many areas in this country where people insist need to have SL teams (eg. Cumbria). BARLA standard teams do not get through to the latter stages of the Challenge Cup, the top teams (excluding the Dragons) are at least NL1 standard as results have shown when the likes of UTC, Toulouse, Pia and Villeneuve have taken part these last few years. Are you sure you're not confusing matters with Russia, where club rugby is still at a pretty low standard? To suggest that French RL is "dead" is quite frankly ludicrous.

A question - have you been on any of the (so far few) away trips to Perpignan? I was there with Wigan in 2002, and I defy anyone who was there to say that the 8000 crowd who turned out to support their team were not enthusiastic. Yes, 8000 for a game UTC must have known they were going to lose badly, but still pulled in bigger crowds than Salford and almost as many as St Helens did this past weekend.

I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with your views on French rugby league, and will be very happy if Les Catalans can make a better impression on the league next year. Even so, with 7 victories under their belts they've hardly floundered this year, have been more successful than other teams who have been relegated in the past and as far as I'm concerned they more than deserve their place in the league.

Just to back up Fraggles points, Catalans already have 14 points this season (and may get more). That's many more than Leigh, Castleford, Halifax, Salford, Hudds, Shudds, Hudds, Hudds, Oldham & Workington, the last 10 teams to finish bottom. They also are drawing better crowds than any of those did.

Fair point here!

[Matthew]

Just to add my 10 bobs worth.

Can anyone explain to me why Rugby League needs to expand outside of it's traditional heart land? To what end are we trying to "expand" it? I live in the South and it will always be predominantly Union (and sadly football) here. We are never going to be the biggest game in the world - can't we just be happy being the best?

Due to it's physical nature it will never overtake football because it is too demanding for kids to play every evening with their mates. Being tackled hurts and playing full contact means a pretty short career - how many players retire before 30 due to injuries?

So why are we so desperate to expand? We have a good following and the sport is not in danger of dying out.

We are unlikely to overtake union because not enough other countries play League - and I don't see how the les cats situation, namely merging several clubs and populating it's player rosta with a host of imported players from another continent is going to make that much of a difference in the long term.

les cats will never face relegation - as the franchaise system will come in after their safety net runs out. So unless they go backrupt they will be here indefinitely.

If we are relegated this year at their expense (due to their immunity), will it be better for the game in the long term? One (if not the) biggest club in the history of the game with one of the best academys for young players, playing in a lower league constrained by a suffocating salary cap; just so that we can try and nurture the game in another country? Seems like pretty poor business sense to me.

But at the end of the day, nothing that the RFL does surprises me anymore...

[old hooker]

Exactly,the money that keeps being wasted on London,Wales and now France should be shared amongst the present clubs with a big emphasis in Cumbria which has always been a hotbed of Rugby League.

[Fraggle]

old hooker posted:
Exactly,the money that keeps being wasted on London,Wales and now France should be shared amongst the present clubs with a big emphasis in Cumbria which has always been a hotbed of Rugby League.

One would argue that the "hotbed" of Cumbria is no bigger than that of south-west France, with the big difference being there are more potential spectators in southwest France. Through no fault of their own, Whitehaven, Workington and the rest are never going to be able to attract big crowds (all of 1800 into Whitehaven this weekend), and north of Preston even soccer does not attract much interest until you go over the border into Scotland. If someone can come up with a business plan with some numbers to suggest a Cumbrian team would be successful both in terms of playing performance and support, then I'll welcome them, but I don't see why that should be at the expense of other areas such as France.

I'll admit that the French team should not have come in at the expense of others, the league should have been expanded to 14 teams instead. However, I find it hard to agree with claims that we should abandon this "experiment" when the team has done better in its first season than all the other teams who have finished bottom in SL (some of whom were also immune from relegation). Based on last year's performances, it would be interesting to know where Les Cats would have been compared to Leigh and Widnes - I suspect they would still have found themselves below the French team in the table.

Just a point about the Aussie players at Les Catalans - haven't they got more home players in their team than London have had for the vast majority of their existence? If you're wanting to scrap a team that's a drain on resources, I'd suggest the Quins are at least as much a target having been saved from bankrupcy, having relied on almost entire squads of imported players, not picked up much of a support over many years, having little success...

[Fraggle]

Matthew posted:
Just to add my 10 bobs worth.

Can anyone explain to me why Rugby League needs to expand outside of it's traditional heart land? To what end are we trying to "expand" it? I live in the South and it will always be predominantly Union (and sadly football) here. We are never going to be the biggest game in the world - can't we just be happy being the best?

In this world of the 10 second attention span, money talks. We're never going to attract enough money to compete against other sports if we pull ourselves into a little shell around the M62 corridor, we'll be as marginalised as that Sweeping thing the Scottish housewives do at the Olympics. There's no point being the best if no-one knows we're there, and the big sponsors are not going to interested if we're only getting coverage in the leafy suburbs of Castleford and Swinton.

And why should we be greedy and keep this great game all to ourselves? The general lack of interest in our sport both in the UK and abroad is more often than not caused by lack of awareness rather than a dislike for the product. I've taken a few people to games, from countries that don't have rugby of either code, and they've enjoyed themselves and wanted to see more. If they like the sport, why not others in their country? Once you've got a few people interested watching, they might move onto playing, and from there things can grow. As it is, our claims to be the most famous RL team in the world are a little bit hollow when our world is just England and Australasia.

Due to it's physical nature it will never overtake football because it is too demanding for kids to play every evening with their mates. Being tackled hurts and playing full contact means a pretty short career - how many players retire before 30 due to injuries?

Doesn't stop Formula 1 being a massive spectator sport.

If we are relegated this year at their expense (due to their immunity), will it be better for the game in the long term? One (if not the) biggest club in the history of the game with one of the best academys for young players, playing in a lower league constrained by a suffocating salary cap; just so that we can try and nurture the game in another country? Seems like pretty poor business sense to me.

Being honest, have our performances this year really been good enough? Even last year, with those two humiliating defeats vs Leeds and Saints. Teams losing by 75 points don't deserve their SL place, and some of the rugby we played earlier in the season was of a terrible standard. If we're not good enough to stay up of our own accord, then we should accept relegation. There's still a chance that Les Cats could finish above us in the table, so their achievements or otherwise this year are pretty irrelevant. If we were going to be relegated whilst still 10 points clear of the French, then I think people might have a right to complain, but that's not going to happen. We are where we are through poor performances and mismanagement, and all this "good of the game" stuff doesn't sell to me if we're not good enough to stay in the league.

[Fraggle]

Fawdoffshed posted:
As as been proved with visits to France in the past, most supporters can't afford to travel to away games.

Nor they to us.

It's bad enough going to London and vice versa.

The atmnosphere at grounds such as this is depressing in the extreme.

Again, I would suggest those of us who have been to France would not say the atmosphere is rubbish. I've not been to London for about 3 years, but again I've not had too many complaints (although the Valley was not the best of venues). As for away support not travelling, whilst Les Cats and Quins obviously struggle with that, what's the excuse for fans from Wakefield, or Huddersfield, or even just down the East Lancs in Salford who don't even have as far to travel as many of us. They don't turn out for away games either.

On top of that, Catalans will ride off into the sunset in about three or four years.

Just like the Paris effort did.

Sorry to be so negative. It's been a bad week for Wigan.

There was no RL base in Paris before PSG came along, whereas now we've got a team from an area with 70+ years of RL history. The fans were not there in Paris, a bit like London for us. The fans are already there in the south of France, and they do go and support their team at home. I rather suspect Les Cats will last a bit longer than you think.

I think this is one of those issues on which we'll have to agree to disagree, you're not going to convince me that expanding the game is a bad idea unless this French team collapses (which is not likely at the moment, based on this season). I'd be very happy to see small numbers of people all over the world playing our sport, and a credible European game like the Union boys have with one of their cup competitions. It is the Greatest Game, and I'd like the whole world to know about it!

[GeoffN]

Catalans are averaging 6,700 so far this season - that compares pretty well with their competitors, despite not getting many "away" fans.

[Matthew]

Fraggle posted:

Matthew posted:
Just to add my 10 bobs worth.

Can anyone explain to me why Rugby League needs to expand outside of it's traditional heart land? To what end are we trying to "expand" it? I live in the South and it will always be predominantly Union (and sadly football) here. We are never going to be the biggest game in the world - can't we just be happy being the best?

In this world of the 10 second attention span, money talks. We're never going to attract enough money to compete against other sports if we pull ourselves into a little shell around the M62 corridor, we'll be as marginalised as that Sweeping thing the Scottish housewives do at the Olympics. There's no point being the best if no-one knows we're there, and the big sponsors are not going to interested if we're only getting coverage in the leafy suburbs of Castleford and Swinton.

So the reason we need to be the biggest is purely a money thing? As long as we are doing OK, I don't see that we need to worry. Why would we want to compete with Union and Football? And I don't see how adding a French team that consists largely of Antipodean players and doesn't even have a French chief executive is going to improve sponsership in Super League.

Furthermore, if Wigan are relegated this year then it is highly unlikely that les cats will bring the same amount of sponsership - or outside interest that the Wigan club do.

Fraggle posted:
And why should we be greedy and keep this great game all to ourselves? The general lack of interest in our sport both in the UK and abroad is more often than not caused by lack of awareness rather than a dislike for the product. I've taken a few people to games, from countries that don't have rugby of either code, and they've enjoyed themselves and wanted to see more. If they like the sport, why not others in their country? Once you've got a few people interested watching, they might move onto playing, and from there things can grow. As it is, our claims to be the most famous RL team in the world are a little bit hollow when our world is just England and Australasia.

Most people in the UK with an interest in sport are aware League exists - if they prefer to watch football then that is up to them. Not many of my friends take more than a passing interest in League even those that have been to matches with me and I see little point in trying to ram it down their throats. I don't know how long London have been going but they have yet to get a decent home following; let alone an away contigent and that is after being sponsered by Virgin and being financed and protected by the RFL.

Fraggle posted:

Matthew posted:
Due to it's physical nature it will never overtake football because it is too demanding for kids to play every evening with their mates. Being tackled hurts and playing full contact means a pretty short career - how many players retire before 30 due to injuries?

Doesn't stop Formula 1 being a massive spectator sport.

Anyone can "pretend" to be a racing car driver - most of them pass me in the morning! Formula 1 appeals to people who have an interest in cars; advances in technology are reflected in the cars they drive. Nearly everyone over the age of 18 has or uses a car - so it is easy to see where the interest is built. Playing rugby league requires organisation - you need more than a couple of people to have a game and there are no positions for less able kids - in football they get put in goal.

Fraggle posted:

Matthew posted:
If we are relegated this year at their expense (due to their immunity), will it be better for the game in the long term? One (if not the) biggest club in the history of the game with one of the best academys for young players, playing in a lower league constrained by a suffocating salary cap; just so that we can try and nurture the game in another country? Seems like pretty poor business sense to me.

Being honest, have our performances this year really been good enough? Even last year, with those two humiliating defeats vs Leeds and Saints. Teams losing by 75 points don't deserve their SL place, and some of the rugby we played earlier in the season was of a terrible standard. If we're not good enough to stay up of our own accord, then we should accept relegation. There's still a chance that Les Cats could finish above us in the table, so their achievements or otherwise this year are pretty irrelevant. If we were going to be relegated whilst still 10 points clear of the French, then I think people might have a right to complain, but that's not going to happen. We are where we are through poor performances and mismanagement, and all this "good of the game" stuff doesn't sell to me if we're not good enough to stay in the league.

Yet again though, it is the RFL manipulating the rules to fit their own agenda - just like they have with London all these years. The fact of it is that les cats could have been 10 adrift at the foot of the table and they would still be immune - that fact that they are not is because they have been helped by the RFL with the recruitment of several big name players like Stacey Jones. Wigan have been penalised for breaching the salary cap - however we are one of the few teams that are actually bringing through young players.

As to whether our performance has been good enough - we've won one more game than les cats! Do they deserve to survive just because it's their first season in super league? If that is the case then why not Hull KR (or whoever is promoted) next season? The team that have the worst season should be relegated - otherwise the system is a joke. les cats are protected purely for business reasons - which have nothing to do with the "good of the game" The fact remains that is highly likely that they would have been relegated had they not been protected - which to me just seems wrong

[num lock]

BLOODY well said mate