This says it all

[GeoffN]

I disagree (sorry Dave, but I do agree with you sometimes!) Carney and Radlinski would have made a massive difference tonight.
Firstly, I don't think the scoreline truly reflected the difference betweeen the two sides tonight. Had some of the early luck/decisions gone our way, we would have been well in front. I thought, for example, that Dallas had the ball knocked out of his hand when he made one break and they scored soon after from their possession that should have been a scrum to us for the knock-on. Colbon's early mistakes surprised me - he looked really nervous (and I'm one that's been calling for his inclusion).
Our problem is lack of experience and composure when we get behind, simply because we don't have the older guys to show a little patience in attack. We made loads of breaks, but then panicked, and tried to score straight away instead of taking the field position - incidentally I thought Wild should have had a penalty for being held when getting up to play the ball after one of his breaks.
I'm still confident that, if we can get a reasonably settled side for 2 or 3 games, we will turn this around.
Haven't watched the video yet, but I think the individual ability of the players is good, it's partly their composure and partly the confusion of not having a settled team. Moran looked much better than last week, as did Vaeliki - those 2 passes to Dallas were top centre play, and his defence seems to be improving too. McDonald and Scully were off the pace, understandably, as neither has played for ages; they'll get better.
If we don't pick up any more injuries, and we get Rads, Carney and Orr back, we'll be up there at the end of the season, even without Hock and Lockers.

[ChrisA]

GeoffN posted:
I disagree (sorry Dave, but I do agree with you sometimes!) Carney and Radlinski would have made a massive difference tonight.
Firstly, I don't think the scoreline truly reflected the difference betweeen the two sides tonight. Had some of the early luck/decisions gone our way, we would have been well in front. I thought, for example, that Dallas had the ball knocked out of his hand when he made one break and they scored soon after from their possession that should have been a scrum to us for the knock-on. Colbon's early mistakes surprised me - he looked really nervous (and I'm one that's been calling for his inclusion).
Our problem is lack of experience and composure when we get behind, simply because we don't have the older guys to show a little patience in attack. We made loads of breaks, but then panicked, and tried to score straight away instead of taking the field position - incidentally I thought Wild should have had a penalty for being held when getting up to play the ball after one of his breaks.
I'm still confident that, if we can get a reasonably settled side for 2 or 3 games, we will turn this around.
Haven't watched the video yet, but I think the individual ability of the players is good, it's partly their composure and partly the confusion of not having a settled team. Moran looked much better than last week, as did Vaeliki - those 2 passes to Dallas were top centre play, and his defence seems to be improving too. McDonald and Scully were off the pace, understandably, as neither has played for ages; they'll get better.
If we don't pick up any more injuries, and we get Rads, Carney and Orr back, we'll be up there at the end of the season, even without Hock and Lockers.

I have to disagree, having Carney and Radlinkski back would not change the fact that our forwards are getting battered, the back row is to lightweight and theres no penetration, we are unorganised, we stand to flat, we are making mistakes I wouldnt see when I go watching waterhead under 16's.

The only pluses I got from tonight where the Vaeliki + Dallas pairing, Dave V was doing what is called being a wingmans centre, where he doesnt play to make space for himself, he looks to set his winger up whenever he can, and we have seen it pay off for Dallas a fair few times already this season, that was good to see tonight. I bet Dallas is loving having a guy who looks to set him up, rather than taking the ball at acting half and doing the forwards jobs.

Also Moran started to look a little more confident at times, he organised a little better, but no where near what Lam used to do, and he ran a little more.

[waterside glens]

GeoffN posted:
I disagree (sorry Dave, but I do agree with you sometimes!) Carney and Radlinski would have made a massive difference tonight.
Firstly, I don't think the scoreline truly reflected the difference betweeen the two sides tonight. Had some of the early luck/decisions gone our way, we would have been well in front. I thought, for example, that Dallas had the ball knocked out of his hand when he made one break and they scored soon after from their possession that should have been a scrum to us for the knock-on. Colbon's early mistakes surprised me - he looked really nervous (and I'm one that's been calling for his inclusion).
Our problem is lack of experience and composure when we get behind, simply because we don't have the older guys to show a little patience in attack. We made loads of breaks, but then panicked, and tried to score straight away instead of taking the field position - incidentally I thought Wild should have had a penalty for being held when getting up to play the ball after one of his breaks.
I'm still confident that, if we can get a reasonably settled side for 2 or 3 games, we will turn this around.
Haven't watched the video yet, but I think the individual ability of the players is good, it's partly their composure and partly the confusion of not having a settled team. Moran looked much better than last week, as did Vaeliki - those 2 passes to Dallas were top centre play, and his defence seems to be improving too. McDonald and Scully were off the pace, understandably, as neither has played for ages; they'll get better.
If we don't pick up any more injuries, and we get Rads, Carney and Orr back, we'll be up there at the end of the season, even without Hock and Lockers.

a well balanced report geoffN the nearest to the truth as i see it ps. i just love mrs lams positive approach

[we_need_a_coach]

DaveO posted:

jinkin jimmy posted:
Spot on ChrisA - there is a top group of Saints, Leeds and Bradford and at best we are in a group starting with Hull and ending with Salford. I have been watching this club since the early 80's and we have never been this bad

I agree. I have been watching since about then as well and the fact of the matter is when we have our best squad out that we can get this season (which means all bar O'Loughlin and Hock) we are still way off the pace.

I don't think we will finish in the top six. Wire, Hudds, London, Saints, Bradford and Leeds are all easily better than Wigan.

I think saying that is a no-brainer. It is not being negative but stating a fact.

Then you have Wakefield and Hull. The only reason I left Hull out of the "better than us" list was because we managed to beat them but they were missing key players as well such as Swain.

Salford are playing better than we are and that leaves Widnes and Leigh as the only two sides I think we are better than at the minute.

Dave

Spot on again DaveO, and JJ and ChrisA,, those of us who have been following sport in Wigan for the past, 20, 30, 40 years, and I am in the latter bracket, can honestly say, that this is the pits.

We have had a poor chairman in the past, we have had below std coaches, and we have carries poor players, but never before have we had all three at the same time !!!

Doris and Betts must go !!

[Joanne2809]

I think Wigan have made a HUGE mistake letting Farrell go...he was awesome, a sound leader, strong player and more importantly players respected him. I dont see any decent replacement for him. We will lucky to win anything this year, which is a shame when we have always succeeded getting 'somewhere' over the past few years !!!! Bet the STains are loving this !!!! Maybe all of Mr Whelans efforts and time and money is going too much into latics. We may aswell kiss this season goodbye if maurice and dave are not going to get out there and get some signings. I know that Maurice is saying there is nobody out there ???? Well maybe, but if that is the case, forget any success this season. The young lads are playing out of their skin and we have been so unlucky with injuries, but hey its rugby league and these things happen, the worrying thing is that we have no strong replacements like other teams have, surely this should have been thought about.

once again Denis betts will take the rap and I think that that is unfair !!! Wont be suprised if Maurice and Dave sack him, if they do, I have lost a lot of faith in these two men, Denis is not to blame !!! Its just unfortunate that we have lost KEY players !!!

[thegimble]

DaveO posted:

MrsLam posted:
Don't know what is going on with Brown, when he first joined he seemed to have a lot of potential, but then again does he even know what position he is playing in? He's swapped around from position to position there is no consistency in where he will be so how can he improve his tactics?

That is actually Browns problem. Jack of all trades, master of none.

If Orr is fit he won't play stand off. If our forwards are fit then Wilde is considered a better centre. If Radlinski is fit then he has no chance of being full back. He isn't good enough to keep out any of the players in the positions he can play.

So, when we have a team with better players in all his positions, why is he in the team?

Under normal circumstances he would be considered the reserve stand-off and get a game every now and again when Orr was out injured.

As it is, he is bound to be one of the first names on the team sheet because he has some SL experiece and we are so desperate for that, even it it means playing him out of position.

His use as a utility player, such as it is, is a sad indictment of the state of our squad.

In general terms as a player he makes far too many mistakes and is not ready for regular first team play.

Aspy seems to have lost a lot of confidence in the last year (maybe hes been on this board) he seems scared of running at the opposition, doesn't look safe under a high ball or any kick with any amount of pressure

That is because he is not a winger and is really a centre. If his confidence is shot then this can be firmly laid at the feet of Betts who simply refuses to play him at centre.

If he isn't considered good enough to be a centre then he is another who ought not to be in the team but gets picked because he isn't injured. He is 25 so no longer a "kid" and should by now be up there with the young centres at other top clubs such as Leeds and Bradford. He isn't even close but being played on the wing could very well have ruined his chances with Wigan.

These two players were going to be part of the next great Wigan side. Brown is still young so might recover from this season if he will accept he must understudy one position. As to Aspy, well he isn't good enough for us at the moment playing on the wing ad I don't know if he has a future at centre. He has certainly been mis-managed by Betts IMO. He should beplayed at centre to see if he is good enough and if not, should be released at the end of the season.

Dave

Brown has loads of potential but must realise that he must put his body in a better position at full back. The ball he missed in the 2nd half was almost as bad as his decision to run in the first half on the last tackle. This cost 10 points.

What is astounding is that no single player is being victamised today. Yer if Orr was there wed have pages full.

Seems if your a local lad you can get away with an awful display, come from out of Lancashire and you get crucified for an average display.

[ChrisA]

Very good point, if one of our young guys has a run of bad games, its "oh give him time hes only young" when one of our recruits who has been brought in by mo its "hes useless".
Im afraid that to many of our young guys are just not good enough, Beswick is just to small for a backrower, Brown doesnt really have a position and makes to many mistakes, hes not better than any of our first team in any positon when they are all fit, like Daveo says. Dave Allen is another one who isnt big eough.
The end result is we have alot of players not producing the goods yet, but I would put my money on people like Orr and Moran coming good rather Allen or beswick or Brown, because they have done it already for other clubs.
And those who start with the "he looked good in a bad team" crap, well the Cas team that Orr shone in was better than what we have now, even the same can be said for London and Moran.

Our young guys are not good enough, we could cope with 1 or 2 of them coming through, but not as many as we have now. And lets face it, at 20-21 years old, you are not really that young, players with genuine class show that by that age.

[DaveO]

GeoffN posted:
I disagree (sorry Dave, but I do agree with you sometimes!) Carney and Radlinski would have made a massive difference tonight.

IMO the score reflected the fact that we can't complete for more than 60 mins with a top side.

Bradford just did a professional job and improved their points difference when the opportunity presented itself. It is what Wigan used to do to other sides and I don't recall thinking the scores didn't reflect the games then. Just thet we were that much the better team. Bradford were that much better last night because they scored the points. Simply really.

Dave

[Doveoverdave]

I agree :exc:

[warrior till i die]

what is this message board coming to? We all used to be happily discussing the game and different matters of rugby win or lose. We didnt criticise the team and we never wanted the coach to leave because what good would that leave us in eh? I would truly love to see the team win every week but that wont happen in this league. And if anyone criticises the team try and put yourselves in their boots and see how you would feel being criticised by your own fans.