Contract Chaos

[DaveO]

I am certainly not living in cloud cukoo land but what you say above is IMO the kind of improvement we should have got THIS season. I have yet to say any plausible defence from you or anyone else for us having gone backwards apart from we might do well in the play off's.

I'm not going to dissect all of you post Dave, but will say this. I can't beleive two statments made by you.

Quoting the relevant parts of a post you want to reply to isn't dissecting it if that is what you meant. It makes the reply easier to read and Geoff will tell you its how you are expected to do it on Usenet in any Usenet forum. It isn't being rude or picky so I would just like you to understand there is no other motive for doing it than that.

Firstly that getting to the semi of cup after, (depsite losing it and I agree, badly) is no achievement. It's not like we have been getting to finals regularly for a number of years is it. And 1 game from a Grand Final in spite of us finishing low down in the top 6. As we are not the force we once were how is that going backwards from the previous season of avoiding relegation?

What has us not being the force we once were got to do with it? Isn't that part of the problem, not an excuse? At the end of the day it's just a statistic and it isn't that hard to get to a semi final in terms of having to win that many games. How many games is it required to do it? THREE. You don't have to be that consistent a side to get there especially if you get the luck of the draw.

And guess what? When we did get there we put in one of the dross performances our inconsistent side was typical of in 2007.

That is why I think it masks the underlying problems of the side. If you like, it gives a false sense of well-being. We got to a CC semi so we done good? Not really.

As you have said in the paragraph I've copied above. You would have expected us to have improved this season. I don't really see how that would be a realistic goal.

What? You have got to be having me on with that statement, surely!

IMO we started this season with a much weaker squad than the year before. We have a weaker pack than last season, the loss of Fletcher to be replaced by Coley, was not a like for like swap. Most fans realised we were a prop short going into the season for us to be really competative. Whether that was Noble's choice, I don't know, but I would suspect salary cap restrictions had a major bareing on it. If we'd had a stronger pack, I'm sure Barrett would have played more like last season and we should have been in a better postion than we are now.

We can't let one players retirement be the excuse for going backwards. We do need a player like him I agree but the fact remains we have put in some absolutely dire performances this year not due to missing him but just because the players looked unfit, clueless or just not bothered. We make basic mistakes, we give too many penalties away, we drop off tackles, Noble substitutes by the clock, we don't seem to have the mental toughness to win games like v Les Cats at home when we were ahead. There are so many examples of poor play this year that were there in 2007 I do not understand why they have not been worked on.

FYI, Dave I did watch the games,and held my head in my hands along with many others and admit not to agreeing with all Noble's decisions, if you had bothered to read my previous posts, and maybe its because I have watched the games that I realise that we are only a average side capable of the odd upset. So this is what I base my predictions on for next season, and what I would consider an improvement.

We were only an average side capable of the odd upset last year. We don't seem as capable this year of the odd upset! Noble has had another year under his belt. Nothing has changed. We are worse than last year.

I will even go as far as saying this. If we actually get to the grand final then there is something wrong with the competition structure. A side like ours has no right to be contesting a game to be crowned champions.

I can see it is going to take time to gets us back winning trophies again, and it won't be a short term fix as a lot of fans think. So you either back the coach to deliver over an extended period, or sack him now and get someone better, if that person exists and they would want to take it.

He will have had an extended period by the end of 2009. He has already had 2 1/2 seasons and we are where we are which is IMO not good enough. Not when you consider we spend to the full cap limit and have the facilities we have. The club won't sack him but what I was asking you is if we are as bad in 2009 which will be 3 years or poor play, why would you employ him on a new deal?

I think you may have missed a very important point and that is the club has an option at the end of the 2009 season about his contract so must decide if he gets a deal.

If we have another season like this can you imagine what sort of message that would send out to the majority of fans if it extended his deal?

Dave

[OAMJSONA]

Noble had a ready made side at Bradfort , it just goes to prove he cannot build from scratch. he as had long enough to prove he will not take us any further Heaven knows what next season will bring , but i say now it will not be much different from this season.

In other words , wel will languish in mediocrity

and that is not good enough for our club

[josie andrews]

If in 2009 we have another year like the last 3 then a lot of the fans must have patience of saints because the petty offerrings being dished up at the moment shows a team gong backwards and the performances and points differences show it.

The coaching is in dire need of a complete overhaul from top to bottom.

Noble cant do the job simple

I'm not a 'saint' I'm a Wiganer

[GeoffN]

If in 2009 we have another year like the last 3 then a lot of the fans must have patience of saints because the petty offerrings being dished up at the moment shows a team gong backwards and the performances and points differences show it.

The coaching is in dire need of a complete overhaul from top to bottom.

Noble cant do the job simple

Spot on.

[Matthew]

Noble Career (readers digest edition...)

1st Season - turned around a sinking ship and saved up from relegation: Good

2nd Despite having the best player in the league, we are inconsistent and embarrass ourselves in a semi final against les cats. We scrape into the six and thanks to a player largely ignored by the coach we stage a miraculous comeback against Bradford. We continue this by beating Hull - before falling to pieces against Leeds. We only beat stains once over the course of the season - Average

3rd Team woefully inconsistent, winning less games then the previous season. Calderwood ignored for try hard, but slow second row playing on the wing. Team selection baffling at times. Earlier exit from cup - fail to beat stains in 4 attempts (being realistic here). Coach fails to admit there is a problem - Poor

To me that looks like we are not improving at all. Next season we will be without our main play maker and will be playing two scrum halves instead of the normal stand off and scrum half - on the strength of the team that we have for next season; it looks like we will be no better.

If Noble survives for next season; then it must be his last chance to deliver. He has to improve our league position; improve our cup performance and beat stains at least once - other wise it's time for change

[lucky 13]

Noble Career (readers digest edition...)

1st Season - turned around a sinking ship and saved up from relegation: Good

2nd Despite having the best player in the league, we are inconsistent and embarrass ourselves in a semi final against les cats. We scrape into the six and thanks to a player largely ignored by the coach we stage a miraculous comeback against Bradford. We continue this by beating Hull - before falling to pieces against Leeds. We only beat stains once over the course of the season - Average

3rd Team woefully inconsistent, winning less games then the previous season. Calderwood ignored for try hard, but slow second row playing on the wing. Team selection baffling at times. Earlier exit from cup - fail to beat stains in 4 attempts (being realistic here). Coach fails to admit there is a problem - Poor

To me that looks like we are not improving at all. Next season we will be without our main play maker and will be playing two scrum halves instead of the normal stand off and scrum half - on the strength of the team that we have for next season; it looks like we will be no better.

If Noble survives for next season; then it must be his last chance to deliver. He has to improve our league position; improve our cup performance and beat stains at least once - other wise it's time for change

Thats just about my thoughsts on it .

[DaveO]

Dave, I don't have a problem with you spliting up the post and replying in that way. You obviously have taken me to mean something else, I just didn't want to quote the whole post.
I'm sure you'd never just quote 1 sentence of a post, so it read out of context.

OK fair enough, a simple misunderstanding.

As for suggesting we've not been capable of any upsets this season - have you forgotten beating Leeds twice! They are, I understand a much better side than us this season.

Well OK but what I said was we look less capable of upsets than last year not that we hadn't won any. We got two, one by what I might call a typical underdogs performance (away) and a better one at home but I think that win v Leeds at home is the only game I have come away from this season pleased with the performance.

You seem to have labelled me as Brain Noble's biggest fan, yet I have posted on here thoughout the season and in this thread that I do not agree with some of Brian Nobles decisions. However I think that Brain Noble should remain the coach of Wigan for 2009, that is my opinion.

I am sure he will remain coach for 2009. IL won't sack him. He'd have to pay him off if he did and I can't see him being as willing as DW was to dip into his pocket to do that.

If we don't win a trophy he probably will go. I however don't see us having a strong enough squad to win a trophy next year, and can't see us being a top side for a few years to come.

I don't think we will win a trophy either but I have not said that is the only way Noble should keep his job. I know you are not saying I have but I think if we finished in the top 3 on the back of a strong and consistent season that would be enough for IL to give him the extension to his contract. It would be hard to argue against IL if he did on the back of such a season but I have other reservations about Noble not just the lack of improvement he must carry the can for this season.

I think there is something seriously wrong at Wigan, I don't know what, or how much of it, if any is down to BN, but 1 thing that worries me is how are we so light in backroom staff? And I think Ian Leneghan has stated that he won't fund the extra staffing, it will have to come from increased turnover, so does that mean until the turnover improves that there will be no extra staff, surely for a man of IL's immense wealth, this would be a drop in the ocean!

Funny you should say this as on rlfans there is a thread titled "The social season of 2008" where people are saying the only fun they have had is the socialising because the RL has been so poor. It got to the topic of increased season ticket prices and in response that I posted this:

I can understand why IL want to put the price up - he wants the club to run as a going concern and not on handouts from him. However he's picked the wrong time put the price up on the back of a very dull season.

So as you say IL needs to pull something out of the bag or I think he will have a hard time matching the revenue he got from this seasons season ticket sales due to fewer people renewing or taking them up.

The thought has crossed my mind that what he ought to do is go against his principles and instead of upping the prices he should effectively subsidise the season tickets by keeping the prices the same. Or even reduce them in order to keep the support so when we do get better he has a larger fan base who WILL be prepared to pay an increase.

Not much use having a wealthy owner if when needs must he keeps the pennies in the piggy bank and I do think he is risking it by going for an increase after the way the team has played this season.

So if as you say IL won't fund the staff himself I think this is a problem because as I say above he might get less revenue next season off fewer more expensive season ticket sales.

If that is the case then no extra staff, more poor play and so the decline continues.

It seems we have swapped one owner in DW who was prepared to dig deep but possibly didn't have the right ideas for an owner who may have the right ideas but despite being rich himself won't spend the cash.

It's an OK aim to get the club running on its own two feet. IL himself won't be around forever so it would be a good legacy to leave but as the saying goes "You have to speculate to accumulate" and I don't see IL wanting to do this. A bit strange from a businessman who must be used to the notion that companies don't grow organically quickly but need injections of cash to fund it.

Dave

[josie andrews]

I think there is something seriously wrong at Wigan, I don't know what, or how much of it, if any is down to BN, but 1 thing that worries me is how are we so light in backroom staff? And I think Ian Leneghan has stated that he won't fund the extra staffing, it will have to come from increased turnover, so does that mean until the turnover improves that there will be no extra staff, surely for a man of IL's immense wealth, this would be a drop in the ocean!

Funny you should say this as on rlfans there is a thread titled "The social season of 2008" where people are saying the only fun they have had is the socialising because the RL has been so poor. It got to the topic of increased season ticket prices and in response that I posted this:

I can understand why IL want to put the price up - he wants the club to run as a going concern and not on handouts from him. However he's picked the wrong time put the price up on the back of a very dull season.

So as you say IL needs to pull something out of the bag or I think he will have a hard time matching the revenue he got from this seasons season ticket sales due to fewer people renewing or taking them up.

The thought has crossed my mind that what he ought to do is go against his principles and instead of upping the prices he should effectively subsidise the season tickets by keeping the prices the same. Or even reduce them in order to keep the support so when we do get better he has a larger fan base who WILL be prepared to pay an increase.

Not much use having a wealthy owner if when needs must he keeps the pennies in the piggy bank and I do think he is risking it by going for an increase after the way the team has played this season.

So if as you say IL won't fund the staff himself I think this is a problem because as I say above he might get less revenue next season off fewer more expensive season ticket sales.

If that is the case then no extra staff, more poor play and so the decline continues.

It seems we have swapped one owner in DW who was prepared to dig deep but possibly didn't have the right ideas for an owner who may have the right ideas but despite being rich himself won't spend the cash.

It's an OK aim to get the club running on its own two feet. IL himself won't be around forever so it would be a good legacy to leave but as the saying goes "You have to speculate to accumulate" and I don't see IL wanting to do this. A bit strange from a businessman who must be used to the notion that companies don't grow organically quickly but need injections of cash to fund it.

Dave

I think these are two very good points and probably what a lot of fans are thinking/saying. Why don't you email these thoughts to IL/JL and see if you get a response. It puts across everything that needs to be said.

[pedro]

Spoke to Mickey and he said Wigan have never offered him a deal and had no contact whatsoever.

He was on 75k at Wigan and has signed for Wire for 45k a year and would have accept a pay cut to stay at Wigan. HE says he will go public with this once he has moved as he says its a joke how the people who make the decisions have said its due to the salary cap.

[Fujiman]

Spoke to Mickey and he said Wigan have never offered him a deal and had no contact whatsoever.

He was on 75k at Wigan and has signed for Wire for 45k a year and would have accept a pay cut to stay at Wigan. HE says he will go public with this once he has moved as he says its a joke how the people who make the decisions have said its due to the salary cap.

He would be better keeping stum and leaving with his head high and ears ringing with the sound of keep mickey. All he's going to do is make it look like sour grapes if he speaks out