Wigan Warriors v Harlquins

[DaveO]

Dave you are obsessed with Ainscough just as you were with Higham.

The only thing I am obsessed with is seeing players get a fair crack of the whip. I could equally say you are so obsessed with Goulding you are prepared to put other players down, in this case Ainscough. In fact I do say that is what you are doing.

You are also equally obsessed with Hock IMO and countenance little or no criticism of him as well.

Add to this your "I am always right" attitude and I wonder why I bother responding at times.

Based on umpteen matches whether or not Bailey should have been their to cover the knock down is immaterial because Goulding has shown he can deal with kicks on a regular basis. All Ainscough had to do was get one hand to that ball and make it go into touch which was 1 yard away. Yet he did nothing. Yet you blame Bailey. How crazy is that?

If you read the posts of others there are plenty who fail to see it the way you do but you simply miss the point that you are focusing on one debatable passage of play to the exclusion of all else thus showing your anti Ainscough obsession. You are, yet again, going OTT.

You do realise when we played Wire at the HJ this season, they spent all week training how to target Ainscough because they thought he would be selected.

Of course they did. I forgot you have your spies everywhere and are privy to all teams tactics and training in the SL. Given Ainscough was out on loan at the time I am sure Wire must have used their crystal ball to not only predict he recall but also his selection, spent all week training on the off chance he might play while totally ignoring the threat any other Wigan players posed.

Thankfully he wasn't and Goulding made a difference and we finally won at the HJ. Need I remind you what happened at the HJ the last time Ainscough played. That is how crazy your asumption Goulding would not have made a blind bit of difference is. It is denegrates his contribution.

My opinion is you could have stuck Offiah in his prime outside Bailey and it would have made no difference. The only player this point if view denigrates is Bailey and trying to suggest it denigrates Goulding is just a stupid stance to take.

As to what happened at the HJ when we have lost in the past I am sure you will ignore the failings of other team members such as Roberts who had a shocker if it suits your stance.

Ainscough tackled Penny. He didn't catch him.v When he tackled him he was in line with Phelps and 1 yard from Phelps who yes made a woeful attempt but still put Penny virtually into Ainscough's arms. To say he ran down and tackled Penny is absurd Dave.

Absolute rubbish. He caught him from behind.

I have said Bailey had a shocker. I have said Ainscough was at fault for possibly 2 tries. What nobody knows is whether Ainscough and Walker's poor communication / understanding with Bailey contributed to Bailey looking like a mug. I do know defence is about teamwork so maybe it was a factor especially as we know that out of the 3 players mentioned, Bailey is the best defender and understands defence.

So now you are suggesting it's Ainscough's fault Bailey looked poor? Are you for real?

Service? Several passes in the first half or tries scored down that wing by Wigan. I never had Bailey down as a wonderful passer but in recent games he has produced some excellent passes. V Quins the passes ended with Ainscough stopping to catch them. Who was to blame? In the World of Dave, Bailey.

In the real world you are in a minority of one as you move to shift the blame for how Bailey played to Ainscough. That is what you are doing and it's ridiculous.

It was Ainscough poor communication that made Bailey look poor and now Ainscough over-running passes made Bailey look poor in that department? Ridiculous.

You are making it up. What a load of tripe but then given you will never admit you are wrong you have little alternative to post such fanciful nonsense do you?

However, I do know after watching Ainscough for 5 years that he routinely runs full on, often too early with no regard for the positioning of his centre. In the reserves the team ended up kicking little grubbers through for him rather than passing. Why? because Ainscough would commit himself to running full on past the defensive line and be screasming kick it rather than waiting / timing his runs alongside the inside centre, second rower.

I daresay you will blame Bailey for the lack lustre scoots by Ainscough too Dave? Even you should acknowledge that Goulding's scoots have been vastly superior to anything offered v Ainscough v Quins which makes your statement Goulding would not make a blind bit of difference even more farcical.

More Ainscough made Bailey look bad nonsense.

Do you actually think you have any credibility left in this argument having taken it down this track? How long did it take you to dream this nonsense up?

Maybe Cas was the right level for Ainscough Dave?

Maybe you ought to stop before you look even sillier.

Dave

[j658]

I have said Bailey had a shocker. I have said Ainscough was at fault for possibly 2 tries. What nobody knows is whether Ainscough and Walker's poor communication / understanding with Bailey contributed to Bailey looking like a mug. I do know defence is about teamwork so maybe it was a factor especially as we know that out of the 3 players mentioned, Bailey is the best defender and understands defence.

CP I think you are in danger of making yourself look obsessed and a little silly there. Stick to your argument which has its merits and supporters, and don't try to blame the lad (or infer blame) for Baileys (a former SOO player & international) poor performance.

I have read with interest the disagreement between you and DaveO about Ainscough and I fall somewhere in the middle. I prefer Goulding on the wing now but would like to see SA given a proper go in the 1st team at some point. I will reserve judement on if he will make it until he gets a proper go. I think it's a little unfair that a clean slate has been given to all the players except him it seems. I agree that he hasn't set the world alight at Cas but I want him to be judged on performances for Wigan and for him to get a chance like he did last year.

Having watched the highlights I agree the 1st try was Ainscough fault but he wasn't helped by Bailey. Its arguable what difference DG would have made as although he deals with those situations better, the cards were heavily stacked for the attacking side. The kick was weighted & positioned brilliantly.
The rest of the tries down the right were clearly down to Baileys lack of pace. No doubt he understands defense but he is nowhere quick enough to cover if the defense is stretched.
That is why I'm unwilling to judge him on that game, and would rather see how he goes outside Gleeson or Goulding.

Now play nice you guys
Bill

[cpwigan]

Not really Bill. The resoponses to the post reflect which British RL always lags behind the Australians. We frequently have great individuals but when it comes to teamwork we are light years behind the Aussies and nowhere is teamwork more important than in defence. We don't see it. Fans are sadly ignorant and I don't mean that in a negative way to the genuine mechanics of how defence and offensive systems work. When fans / media pundits isolate it to a single player then yes it is easy to do so but in reality defending as a team, communicating with the players inside and outside of you are as impotrtant as making the tackle. The process of making the tackle is the easy bit. Sadly most people are oblivious to this. Just as if a defenders steps out of the line it makes everybody look stupid, a lack of communication, numbering up, correct spacing are vital when players have seconds to deal with an attacker. I put forward the idea because Dave IMO knows very little about sport. The fact he dove into that part of the post looking to score cheap points proves that. Most professional sportsmen/women that I know think fans haven't got a clue. Maybe they are right.

Bailey IMO had a very poor game as did virtually the whole team but if you were assessing defensive capability who would not rate Bailey higher than Ainscough and Walker. Prior to his injury H got made to look a mug in a game but who in their right mind thinks H cannot defend?

IMO, As a nation we lag behind in so many sports because our ability to function as a team is so far behind other nations. Joe Public do not understand how important teamwork is. Sure they use the phrase like a cliche but they do not understand it.

Last season Ainscough was let down by Noble. This season he has been let down by nobody. Again fans often scream NO, No but the blooding of youngsters was short term pain, long term gain for Saints. In our case the reluctance to gradually blood youngsters until this season has left a catch up scenario that created pain in silly defeats. Maybe it is worth it in the long term. Many fans think Moss is the finished article. He is far from it. It does not mean he is not good enough. Likewise Farrell. The difference is the more games these players get the better they will become. SL is a huge adjustment in playing standards. Sadly some will get no better, even get worse as their faults are highlighted. I wonder who falls in that category?

[j658]

Whilst I mostly agree with your post about general fan ignorance about the more complex systems involved defensively (disregarding anything directed at DaveO) bearing in mind how important the teamwork ethic is, surely Bailey as a senior pro and team captain bears more responsibilty for Friday than Ainscough & Walker. If communication is the problem then for me the buck stops with the senior player. Its obvious lack of communication/teamwork played a part with so many players out/out of position. I'm sure Bails will have put his hand up today when they watched the video.

RE Ainscough, if everyone has a clean slate then to me SA shouldn't be solely judged on Fridays game, for the 1st try it's debatable if anyone (even Pat) could have 100% dealt with the kick, though do I agree SA doesn't make enough of an effort to at least cause a problem for the Quins winger.
Going back to teamwork, Gleeson would have put himself between the winger & centre (as he routinely does defending bombs) to protect his winger. He did very similar against Leeds, blocking off the onrushing attackers to protect DG.
This alludes to my earlier point that I want to judge SA when he is given a chance outside a quality centre, not a workmanlike second rower with no pace. Maybe it will turn out he can't iron out the mistakes and he leaves and finds his level at another club. Maybe he scores 3 tries for every 1 he concedes and gives Madge a massive decision to make. Thats where coaches earn their money innit!!

PS totally agree about Mossop, at times because of his build and work ethic he looks like the finished article but he lacks the discpline and technique that will come with experience. When he adds that we have a special player because in terms of raw talent he has it in abundance.
Bill

[Kiwiseddon]

Right. Time to settle this once and for all. As It's never going to get resolved on here so this is what I propose...

We'll get CP and DaveO to challenge each other to a dual! One in an Ainscough shirt and one in Goulding's. They can chuck pies at each other from either side of Wigan Pier until one of them falls in the cut. The winner can claim to be the Grand Master Supreme Champion Big Dog Bestest Wigan Fan ever and will reign supreme over Wiganwarriorsfans.com



OR.......


They could agree to disagree!!!!!!!!    

[cpwigan]

I agree Bill. I think in part Bailey is too far past his best to close the gaps left by what was basically 3 virtual strangers trying to defend an area of the pitch that Quins targetted. His mind may well tell him where he needs to be but the body is less able now. Defensively, the best XIII make it easierfor each other individually and collectively we see the results I.E points conceded.

[jobo]

Just read most of the posts on this topic and I'd just like to ask, was I the only one that spotted Ainscough was limping for most of the second half?

As for Bailey, I thought we should have binned him after last season but his performances up to the Quins game this season, have been good. However, his inside defence especially against a left foot step was terrible.

As they say, it's a game of 2 halves, we looked excellent for most of the first half but played stupid, panic rugby in the second.

I'd say this loss was more down to trying to force a pass when it wasn't needed, a woeful completion rate (2nd half)
and Quins to their credit not giving up when it looked like a cricket score was in the offing.

[Dobby]

I agree Bill. I think in part Bailey is too far past his best to close the gaps left by what was basically 3 virtual strangers trying to defend an area of the pitch that Quins targetted. His mind may well tell him where he needs to be but the body is less able now. Defensively, the best XIII make it easierfor each other individually and collectively we see the results I.E points conceded.

I have never been a fan of Bailey and was disappointed that his contract was renewed. I have certainly never rated him in the centre and even before this season I have seen him skinned many times when playing in that position, Friday wasnt really anything new. It is just even worse now because he is even slower.

[Fujiman]

Just read most of the posts on this topic and I'd just like to ask, was I the only one that spotted Ainscough was limping for most of the second half?

As for Bailey, I thought we should have binned him after last season but his performances up to the Quins game this season, have been good. However, his inside defence especially against a left foot step was terrible.

As they say, it's a game of 2 halves, we looked excellent for most of the first half but played stupid, panic rugby in the second.

I'd say this loss was more down to trying to force a pass when it wasn't needed, a woeful completion rate (2nd half)
and Quins to their credit not giving up when it looked like a cricket score was in the offing.

I've mentioned it somewhere that i thought he was limping but nobody else i think picked up on it. Maybe we were both seeing things

[jaws1]

Just read most of the posts on this topic and I'd just like to ask, was I the only one that spotted Ainscough was limping for most of the second half?

As for Bailey, I thought we should have binned him after last season but his performances up to the Quins game this season, have been good. However, his inside defence especially against a left foot step was terrible.

As they say, it's a game of 2 halves, we looked excellent for most of the first half but played stupid, panic rugby in the second.

I'd say this loss was more down to trying to force a pass when it wasn't needed, a woeful completion rate (2nd half)
and Quins to their credit not giving up when it looked like a cricket score was in the offing.

I've mentioned it somewhere that i thought he was limping but nobody else i think picked up on it. Maybe we were both seeing things

Bailey was limping in the warm up in Sheffield .