Quality Players

[Matthew]

Shevi 4 life posted:

11.lee gilmour not sure

Gilmour started out at Wigan! Pretty sure he came through the academy too. He was young player of the year; before he signed for Bradford for a couple of years before moving to stains. He's played for GB too.

Either a lot of the players at Stains are playing for the "privilege" of playing for them or something else is going on.

In fairness they have signed internationals with something left to give and you wouldn't catch them talking about resigning old players. However the fact that their team is settled and they have (unfortunately) bred a success culture, means the young players coming through have role models - so they are less likely to act like big time charlies (unlike certain Wigan players) - that said some of them have still got the charisma of a dustbin lid...

[DaveO]

Lazy J posted:

DaveO posted:

How are Sainta managing to retain players that come through their ranks, pay them an improved wage when they get that bit more experienced AND continue to sign current internationals yet remain under the salary cap?

Dave

Simple thier chairman is a highley experienced merchant banker with knowlegde of overseas banking, ours is a rails bookie with a dodgy version of excel to do his calculations on

You don't need to be an experienced merchant banker to understand the use of offshore employee benefit trusts. However their use as a tax dodge only applies to overseas players. The effectiveness of them has also been reduced somewhat due to the fact national insurance no longer counts as part of a clubs salary cap spend. I still don't see Saints having to shed players.

But it isn't just Wigan fans who are asking these questions. A mate of mine was visiting on Sunday from Bradford and he also wonders how Saints maintain their squad.

Given Saints are starting to dominate as Wigan did which is supposedly a bad thing you would think the RFL would start to take a keener interest as to why given their precious salary cap clearly isn't working.

At the moment the competition seems to be decided by who can manipulate the salary cap the best by employing the best accountants!

Dave

[GeoffN]

DaveO posted:

But it isn't just Wigan fans who are asking these questions. A mate of mine was visiting on Sunday from Bradford and he also wonders how Saints maintain their squad.

Given Saints are starting to dominate as Wigan did which is supposedly a bad thing you would think the RFL would start to take a keener interest as to why given their precious salary cap clearly isn't working.

At the moment the competition seems to be decided by who can manipulate the salary cap the best by employing the best accountants!

Dave

What I'd like to see is something equivalent to a "rateable value" for players (based on age, ability, international experience etc). Their "official" salary (i.e. what the club claims to be paying them) should be made public, and any suspiciously low salaries have to be justified to the RFL.

I realise there's a confidentiality issue, but there are a lot of jobs where the salary is a matter of public record, so there must be a way around it.

I'd even go further, and say if another club comes along with a better offer than the one the player is claimed to be on, they should be forced to either let the player go or match the increased offer.

[DaveO]

GeoffN posted:
What I'd like to see is something equivalent to a "rateable value" for players (based on age, ability, international experience etc). Their "official" salary (i.e. what the club claims to be paying them) should be made public, and any suspiciously low salaries have to be justified to the RFL.

That might work but it would not stop players going to the highest bidder in term of real salary which would not go down well with the smaller clubs or the RFL.

I'd even go further, and say if another club comes along with a better offer than the one the player is claimed to be on, they should be forced to either let the player go or match the increased offer.

That is unworkable. You need to know you have a player for several seasons so you can plan your squad.

I am sure someone could offer more for Barrett but I doubt Wigan have room on the cap to match the offer. Contracts do offer some stability for those planning ahead.

So I take the opposite view and would say that if a player signs a contract he must see it out. That would have meant we didn't get Fielden but it would also have meant we never lost Faz or Carney if this could be enforced.

Dave

[/quote]

[GeoffN]

DaveO posted:

GeoffN posted:
What I'd like to see is something equivalent to a "rateable value" for players (based on age, ability, international experience etc). Their "official" salary (i.e. what the club claims to be paying them) should be made public, and any suspiciously low salaries have to be justified to the RFL.

That might work but it would not stop players going to the highest bidder in term of real salary which would not go down well with the smaller clubs or the RFL.

That's where the salary cap would come in. I'm envisioning something along the lines of "bands" of player values roughly similar to the bands for council tax (but more of them).
Top stars in band 1, of, say, £200k, down to juniors in band 10 on <£25k. So if a club claims to be paying, say, Cunningham in band 4, questions would be asked, and perhaps involve the tax investigators (who do have the power to look at bank accounts, spending, etc.)

I'd even go further, and say if another club comes along with a better offer than the one the player is claimed to be on, they should be forced to either let the player go or match the increased offer.

That is unworkable. You need to know you have a player for several seasons so you can plan your squad.

I am sure someone could offer more for Barrett but I doubt Wigan have room on the cap to match the offer. Contracts do offer some stability for those planning ahead.

So I take the opposite view and would say that if a player signs a contract he must see it out. That would have meant we didn't get Fielden but it would also have meant we never lost Faz or Carney if this could be enforced.

Dave

[/quote]

Fair point; I'm simply trying to find a way to counter some of the alleged ways around the cap. Maybe some sort of consensus amongst the clubs as to how much individual players are worth?
There must be a way, other than the RFL's preferred approach of ignoring it.

[Shevi 4 life]

GeoffN posted:

DaveO posted:

GeoffN posted:
What I'd like to see is something equivalent to a "rateable value" for players (based on age, ability, international experience etc). Their "official" salary (i.e. what the club claims to be paying them) should be made public, and any suspiciously low salaries have to be justified to the RFL.

That might work but it would not stop players going to the highest bidder in term of real salary which would not go down well with the smaller clubs or the RFL.

That's where the salary cap would come in. I'm envisioning something along the lines of "bands" of player values roughly similar to the bands for council tax (but more of them).
Top stars in band 1, of, say, £200k, down to juniors in band 10 on <£25k. So if a club claims to be paying, say, Cunningham in band 4, questions would be asked, and perhaps involve the tax investigators (who do have the power to look at bank accounts, spending, etc.)

I'd even go further, and say if another club comes along with a better offer than the one the player is claimed to be on, they should be forced to either let the player go or match the increased offer.

That is unworkable. You need to know you have a player for several seasons so you can plan your squad.

I am sure someone could offer more for Barrett but I doubt Wigan have room on the cap to match the offer. Contracts do offer some stability for those planning ahead.

So I take the opposite view and would say that if a player signs a contract he must see it out. That would have meant we didn't get Fielden but it would also have meant we never lost Faz or Carney if this could be enforced.

Dave

Fair point; I'm simply trying to find a way to counter some of the alleged ways around the cap. Maybe some sort of consensus amongst the clubs as to how much individual players are worth?
There must be a way, other than the RFL's preferred approach of ignoring it.[/quote]

Offshore acounts. i think :conf:

[warrior till i die]

why are people righting off andy coley before he has even played for us? Apparently hes not big enough for wigan! But who is big enough for wigan? Vaeliki came over here with a massive rep but what happend? he is shocking! This is the problem with wigan fans, why do we think we should sign world beaters? Id prefer 13 players who work hard for each other and the team than having 13 world class players who are too big for themselves.

[lucky 13]

OK other teams are announcing signings but why so much doom and gloom .
We are all guessing as to the make up of the team , if you look at who may leave and the fact that we have a squad 2 players down plus the loss of Withers we should be able to bring in 2 or 3 class players and a similar number of squad players , add this to a team that made it to the semi's of the cup and also who would have been in the top four but for our ''spirit'' in more ways than one transgression plus the prospect of new owner's , best crowd figures for god knows how long it may be better than we think ,for a kick off put a couple of decent props in the team and let Barrett play behind a pack going forward the lads been brilliant this season , it may seem a bit gloomy at the moment but look on the positive(DV GOING) a new beginning

[jaws1]

I think Nobby and MO had marked the players they want to sign well before the fracas with the salary cap and new owners etc .

[DaveO]

warrior till i die posted:
why are people righting off andy coley before he has even played for us? Apparently hes not big enough for wigan!

I think you will find most people who are less than inspired with Coley as a signing feel that way because they do not rate him as that good a player.

It is nothing to do with any stupid notions that he "isn't big enough for Wigan". It is based on people judgement of the player.

If there is any query of such signings being substandard for Wigan as a club it has more to do with the fact we can spend the same as everyone else but others are signing better players. Is it not a legitimate question to ask why that is?

In theory next year we will have about £100K more to spend on players than anyone else so it is a bit mystifying as to why two players who would solve a problem we know we have in the centres, King and Webster, have gone elsewhere. I can understand King because the salary cap issue had not been cleared up but missing out on Webster looks a serious slip up.

But who is big enough for wigan? Vaeliki came over here with a massive rep but what happend? he is shocking! This is the problem with wigan fans, why do we think we should sign world beaters? Id prefer 13 players who work hard for each other and the team than having 13 world class players who are too big for themselves.

Then you will be happy watching an average trophy-less team.

World class players do net get to be world class players by having a bad attitude to how they play the game. Holding up DV as a reason why not to move for world class players is ridiculous IMO.

World class players are the most skilful and the ones who apply themselves to the game properly giving 100% - like Barrett, Radlinski and Farrell.

The vast majority of world class players we have had at the club fit that mould not the DV one. I would like to see some more genuine class players at the club not a team of average Joe's who will get us to 4th and no further.

Dave