Surely tonight's team means Feka is on his way out?

[Exiled Wiganer]

This is a fascinating debate. My thoughts:
1 - Feca in defence: our defence has been superb. I am not a qualified coach, but it seems to me to require high intensity, precision and high fitness levels. None of these does Feca possess in comparable quantities to Mossop or Farrell, say. Hence, in the defensive line we can get by with a plethora of young 2nd rowers. We are 2 wins away from being Minor Premiers, and so a) MM's judgement is backed up by results and b) he is right to focus solely on winning the Minor Premiership, rather than somehow adjusting his tactics to accommodate Feca. From where we were last year being the best and most consistent side over 27 rounds is an incredible achievement with pretty much the same group of players. Feca has had a long time to get fit and agile enough to play this style. He has not done so to the satisfaction of the coaches;
2 - Feca in attack: where, in Noble coached teams with no moves or penetration, Feca was pretty much plan a to z, together with Hock, as a player who can break the line, we now clearly have no need of a line breaking prop. We have scored more than any team in the league and our wingers have scored hat fulls (over 50 tries?). Hence the only thing we need the props to do are cart it up and play the ball quickly and defend effectively; and
3 - Summer: Feca was fairly effective in early season games, and did well at KR. The winter conditions suited him - we were unable to throw the ball around with the same abandon and they were inevitibly slower games. Thus, he became more useful in attack. We can effectively win the league during July, and if not certainly during August. Because the 4 Nations are Down Under, the Grand Final is first week October. Autumn may come early but I would be surprised to find that we would go back to February/March weather.
If we lose another prop I would be tempted to try him again, but would not be dismayed to see Davies picked ahead of him.
Finally, he has had a long time to adjust to what is required of him and is being very well paid to try. I would point the finger in his direction rather than MM's given the incredible improvements pretty much everywhere else in the squad.

[Wigan_forever1985]

I understand what DaveO's trying to say but i think Feka was actually a victim of trying to fit Madges.

Under Noble he was overweight and was used as a 10min wrecking ball, something he was known for. However its clear Madge favours strong, fit, runner style props ala peacock style. Feka shed weight as a result he could manage an extra 5 mins perhaps but his impact was lost he now gets tackled far to easy. His defence improved but only slightly where the loss of his attacking game made him somewhat redundant in the team as he doesn't offer enough to warrant his short spell anymore.

Its the old square peg in a round hole, Feka just isn't Madges style of player, just as higham wasn't Nobles.

In regard to Pryce game time, i think there is something amiss with that, i somehow get the impression that IL has a soft spot for him and at the end of the day he's Madges boss.

I cant say I agree that Feka is such a big loss in his current form. Madge is entitled to pick the team he wants. Its had us top of the league all season so i would say he's getting it right.

[DaveO]

This is a fascinating debate. My thoughts:
1 - Feca in defence: our defence has been superb. I am not a qualified coach, but it seems to me to require high intensity, precision and high fitness levels. None of these does Feca possess in comparable quantities to Mossop or Farrell, say. Hence, in the defensive line we can get by with a plethora of young 2nd rowers. We are 2 wins away from being Minor Premiers, and so a) MM's judgement is backed up by results and b) he is right to focus solely on winning the Minor Premiership, rather than somehow adjusting his tactics to accommodate Feca.

It is not about adjusting your tactics to accommodate Feka but about making the most of your squad. Two completely different things.

I am sure when Riddell is on the pitch the players follow different instructions than when McIllorum is playing and no one is suggesting not to play Riddell because his knees limit what he can do. The team works around it and we get to have two hookers to interchange i.e. the squad is being used to the full here.

All of our players have limitations to varying degrees and Madge has got the side playing well despite those limitations. In other words the excuse often made for Noble of "its not his team" does not apply. I never felt that was acceptable and Noble should have got more out of the side. Well it isn't in actual fact Madge's team either because he did inherit it bar Deacon so he has done really well to get it to be so much more effective and that is why it is a mystery to me as to why he has seemingly failed with Feka.

From where we were last year being the best and most consistent side over 27 rounds is an incredible achievement with pretty much the same group of players. Feca has had a long time to get fit and agile enough to play this style. He has not done so to the satisfaction of the coaches;
2 - Feca in attack: where, in Noble coached teams with no moves or penetration, Feca was pretty much plan a to z, together with Hock, as a player who can break the line, we now clearly have no need of a line breaking prop.

We don't need line breaking props v Salford but despite being where we are in the league unfortunately it's winning the GF that counts and we will play sides who can play like us but who also have line breaking props. Huddersfield spring to mind as do Wire and I don't see such props going out of fashion at the other top sides either. Feka may well not be the line breaking prop we need long term but to say we don't need a line breaking prop any more is not correct IMO.

We have scored more than any team in the league and our wingers have scored hat fulls (over 50 tries?). Hence the only thing we need the props to do are cart it up and play the ball quickly and defend effectively;

And when someone works out an effective defence to this (which they will) then what?

3 - Summer: Feca was fairly effective in early season games, and did well at KR. The winter conditions suited him - we were unable to throw the ball around with the same abandon and they were inevitibly slower games. Thus, he became more useful in attack. We can effectively win the league during July, and if not certainly during August. Because the 4 Nations are Down Under, the Grand Final is first week October. Autumn may come early but I would be surprised to find that we would go back to February/March weather.

The weather is almost on a par with the "it's not his team" list of excuses that get made for players IMO. When it's chucking it down you adjust your tactics and when its dry you do the same. All players Feka included need to play and be used differently to take account of the conditions which is stating the obvious isn't it? We only have 25 senior players so you can't assemble a squad that is dry weather only and hope for good weather come the GF.

If we lose another prop I would be tempted to try him again, but would not be dismayed to see Davies picked ahead of him.
Finally, he has had a long time to adjust to what is required of him and is being very well paid to try. I would point the finger in his direction rather than MM's given the incredible improvements pretty much everywhere else in the squad.

Feka certainly takes responsibility for his fitness but you can't expect him to look up to pace when he gets the odd cameo appearance in the first team after playing in the U20's most of the time. With Coley out I can't think of one good reason not to have played him v Salford.

Dave

[Exiled Wiganer]

I am not convinced by your responses Dave o, but lack the technology to cut and paste them.
The results show that MM is doing very well indeed. That is an absolute measure.
I think winning the Minor Premiership is a worthwhile goal in itself. That is my opinion, and a fair one given that it is acknowledged to be one of the 4 pieces of silverware up for grabs each year.
Our defence appears weaker with Feca in it. If anyone genuinely thinks otherwise then I should be interested to read why and how that's not the case.
Our attack does not need him at the moment and probably will not need him to secure the Minor Premiership.

If though we argue that we should have found a better way to accommodate him because he could/will be an essential asset if we are to win the Grand Final, my first point is that the best way to prepare yourself for a tilt at that is to win the Minor Premiership. See above on that. Second, the weather is relevant. A player could be very effective in February but much less so after a long hot summer. That is demonstrably the case, and one of the reasons why Leeds are so good as October goes on but less so in high summer (with Saints in reverse).
What is it that the opposition can rumble about an attack which uses pretty much the whole pitch and an entire team in motion? I can't see how those principles can be so rumbled we will go back to being reliant on someone who can make breaks from a standing start. We don't need that attribute because the collective attack is demonstrably far more effective than an individual.
Feca's success has always been in his own hands. If he cannot lift himself while playing in the under 20s, a level at which he ought to be unstoppable, that says a lot about his capacity for greatness.

[Lil Feka's Dad]

Our defence appears weaker with Feca in it. If anyone genuinely thinks otherwise then I should be interested to read why and how that's not the case.

It amazes me that so many people blame Feka’s defence for the Cup Semifinal result in 2009. Even the gurus on here seem to forget that the 3 try blitz came immediately after Bailey went off injured, and the team in general was in disarray.

Many of Wigan’s dreadful defensive displays in recent seasons can be traced back to Bailey’s absence (Magic Weekend in Cardiff, Catalan away in 2009 spring to mind). Not trying to divert the thread, but it seems that because of that one Cup game, Feka still carries the millstone of “poor defence”. I don’t recall too many threads lambasting his defensive qualities before that particular game.

Neither do I recall many complaints following the win at Saints this year, yet that was one of the few games this season Feka got the opportunity to take to the field.

From what I’ve seen, the 2010 model is definitely more mobile than the 2009 one, but for whatever reason (and I don’t claim to have the answer) I don’t believe we’ve seen enough game time from Feka to properly judge the improvement.

[DaveO]

It amazes me that so many people blame Feka’s defence for the Cup Semifinal result in 2009. Even the gurus on here seem to forget that the 3 try blitz came immediately after Bailey went off injured, and the team in general was in disarray.

Many of Wigan’s dreadful defensive displays in recent seasons can be traced back to Bailey’s absence (Magic Weekend in Cardiff, Catalan away in 2009 spring to mind). Not trying to divert the thread, but it seems that because of that one Cup game, Feka still carries the millstone of “poor defence”. I don’t recall too many threads lambasting his defensive qualities before that particular game.

The same sort of thing happened with Ainscough. He became a complete defensive liability in some peoples eyes to justify their position in my opinion. Back then it was backing up Noble's decision to drop him by pro-Noble posters (mostly on rlfans) but the lable has stuck.

It seems a similar thing has happened with Feka. His defence is poor so Madge is right but just as with Ainscough I don't think Feka's defence is as bad as some make out.

Neither do I recall many complaints following the win at Saints this year, yet that was one of the few games this season Feka got the opportunity to take to the field.

From what I’ve seen, the 2010 model is definitely more mobile than the 2009 one, but for whatever reason (and I don’t claim to have the answer) I don’t believe we’ve seen enough game time from Feka to properly judge the improvement.

I agree especially the bit in bold. He has played in 12 games this season but not many have been back to back games if any. I don't see how he can be expected to remain match fit under those circumstances given his physique. I think he's been on a hiding to nothing.

Dave

[DaveO]

I am not convinced by your responses Dave o, but lack the technology to cut and paste them.
The results show that MM is doing very well indeed. That is an absolute measure.
I think winning the Minor Premiership is a worthwhile goal in itself. That is my opinion, and a fair one given that it is acknowledged to be one of the 4 pieces of silverware up for grabs each year.
Our defence appears weaker with Feca in it. If anyone genuinely thinks otherwise then I should be interested to read why and how that's not the case.
Our attack does not need him at the moment and probably will not need him to secure the Minor Premiership.

If the rumours about Lima are true we are certainly trying to sign a prop of a similar nature (but better) so the clubs sees a need for this type of prop. Lima is an impact prop played off the bench. The league is a worthwhile trophy but I don't see this as any argument that Feka should not have been handled better and his strengths exploited by the team. By your argument we don't need Hoffman or Lima but we look to have signed one for sure and are linked with the other.

If though we argue that we should have found a better way to accommodate him because he could/will be an essential asset if we are to win the Grand Final, my first point is that the best way to prepare yourself for a tilt at that is to win the Minor Premiership. See above on that.

I don't see the relevance. The best way to prepare is obviously to do well in the league but that doesn't get away from the fact we will have to beat packs that include the likes of Morely and Crabtree to win what is the main trophy.

Second, the weather is relevant. A player could be very effective in February but much less so after a long hot summer. That is demonstrably the case, and one of the reasons why Leeds are so good as October goes on but less so in high summer (with Saints in reverse).

OK then October is less likely to be summer conditions so I still think your argument is banking on the weather and you can't do it IMO.

What is it that the opposition can rumble about an attack which uses pretty much the whole pitch and an entire team in motion? I can't see how those principles can be so rumbled we will go back to being reliant on someone who can make breaks from a standing start. We don't need that attribute because the collective attack is demonstrably far more effective than an individual.

It's not about switching to a completely different style of play that relies on a battering ram approach but being flexible to take advantage of what a player like Feka offers when he comes on. In any case the point you missed form my previous post was there are at least two teams who play in a similar way to us who do have bigger packs than us.

Feca's success has always been in his own hands. If he cannot lift himself while playing in the under 20s, a level at which he ought to be unstoppable, that says a lot about his capacity for greatness.

To say his success has always been in his own hands is a gross over simplification IMO which means the coaches have no input or influence. I wonder sometimes how people can think it's such a black and white issue unless they themselves go through life as complete masters of their own destiny always onwards and upwards. Getting the best out of players is big part of a coaches job and that means working out how to do that, not adopting the attitude that if a player needs a different approach then stuff it. I am not saying MM has not tried all he can, we don't know, but it is simply not all down to the player.

I don't think it helps when the coach is quoted in the press as saying Coley's absence is Feka's chance then the coach doesn't play him against a weak side like Salford. The fact Feka may have looked poor last week in the U20's may just be down to him having given up on ever getting a fair crack and it's just too easy for people to trot out comments saying he should not react like that (which I am sure they will).

Dave

[weststand-rich]

MM has 2 specific problems with Fekas defence and neither have improved massively through the season.

The first is his relative lack of speed aligning back in the defensive line. He's flat footed and although fitter and lighter this hasn't translated to endurance stamina or
ability to hold speed.

The second is his lack of mobility. Again this hasn't improved and he just doesn't have that type of athletic dynamism that MM obviously wants.

A shame because he's a top bloke and has give it his all, but I'd wish Feka all the best on his exodus to Hull next year.

[MrDave]

The first is his relative lack of speed aligning back in the defensive line. He's flat footed and although fitter and lighter this hasn't translated to endurance stamina or
ability to hold speed.

The second is his lack of mobility. Again this hasn't improved and he just doesn't have that type of athletic dynamism that MM obviously wants.

Two very good points and I think the St Helens match was the last chance for Feka and unfortunately he didn't play well.

Saints scored a try because they exploited the space Feka left in the defensive line since he was so slow getting back. Straight after that try Maguire brought Feka off and he has not played since.

[butt monkey]

The player has been told he is "surplus to requirements" already. No playing for a new contract, no second chance, no change of heart.

Feka is gutted, really loves Wigan.

Just wish that those "hanging on a limb" that the player still has things to prove and might change in-house decisions now (ala the Higham situation) are wasting their time. He has already had his chance, it is gone and come the end of the season, so will he be!