Discipline and control

[cpwigan]

This will please Dave but it is true, Hansen concedes very few penalties. Whether he is fit enough after lay off to play extended game time I am not sure. He looked fantastic in that brief spell v Leeds but was blowing when he came off. Hansen normally does not struggle condition wise.

[GeoffN]

Penalty counts:

Joel T: 33
Coley: 23
Lockers: 19
Fielden: 17
Prescott: 16
Riddell: 10
Hansen: 9
O'Carroll 3
Feca: 1
Tuson: 1

That's just the forwards, couldn't be bothered doing them all! Doesn't take into account number of games, or amount of tackling, but still indicative, I think.

Tuson 1 penalty in 12 games is outstanding! Upholding the fair play ethos of our website!

[Panchitta Marra]

I calmed down enough to give the Leeds game some thought and the observation by Clarke worried me re how well we start games but progressively get worse. It worried me because it is not a fitness issue anymore.

So I watched the Leeds game again and what struck me is our discipline is a big issue. leeds received 3 successive penalties and got back into the game. Early in the season the penalties were for our fantastic defence and the whisper / shouting media campaign. Such penalties right or wrong yiou can live with but increasingly the penalties have been down to ill discipline and petulant antics like Joel kicking out.

Likewise. If you watch an NRL game, teams / players relinquish possession far less readily and we seem to get a lead and lose respect for possession. Game management is a huge issue in Britain / SL. We lag far behind the Aussies in this respect and seem unable to accept or know how to control the tempo of a game how to maintaion pressure.

The ill discipline and lack of conytrol means that when we need amagic play like a Sam chip and chase we are battling to regain control get back into games and playing low risk so high risk strategies are not used at the back end of games when it might be time to use them.

The discipline issue we can control easily though

At the Leeds match my kids asked me if we would win this game when we were 12:0 up. At that time my very thoughts were just as you have said CP, so I told them that if we held Leeds out for the next 20 minutes, chances are we would win the game.
This first half 20 minute good /20 minute bad split in our play has been in our game for some months now CP. It is even more apparent against the better opposition, big game scenarios such as Saints, Wire & Leeds.
We seem to crumple right on the 20 minute marker.
As you say, it is not our fitness levels that is a concern, as we are as physically fit as any team in SL.
Maybe it is time to go back to getting the basic rugby correct by making the hard yards when needed, eliminating risky passes and off-loads unless the option is a valid one, and making sure our discipline is 100%.
This was how we were winning our matches early season.

[exile in Tiger country]

As much as i like joel ,And he is a great player he does give too many penalties maybe just maybe a ban would of been the better decision for us as a team , So if we win on fri night he might think a bit more before he goes into the next game ,should he be dropped ? now that would shock him, I know we must play our strongest team , And to be honest madge should of maybe dropped him earlier in the season before it got to the nitty gritty part , might of woke him up a bit .

I agree totally, and if Feka and Hansen are fit, after precisely 0 years of coaching anything, I would drop Joel this week, and assuming we win, definitely for the game we assume will be at Headingley.
If he plays against the Whino's he will be off very soon after he starts I think. Too easily wound up.

[MIKE14]

The team has lost composure on several occasions this season when in complete control of the game. Its difficult to see why, partly the refs start "evening up the game" penalties, partly the opposition get a little more niggly, sometimes for no reason I can see but suddenly we lose all our brain cells and stop doing the right things within the space of 5 - 10 minutes.
The worst aspect is that he team does not regain composure in breaks in play (like waiting for conversions after tries conceded!), regains some at half time but never reaches the levels in the first 20 minutes.
There is plenty of individual experience in the team,world cup finals, grand finals here and the NRL so there are been there done that players who know what it takes to keep composed. It could be that however painful we need to fail to win this year to learn how to win next season. We also need this year to have a captain from the same mould as Faz, Edwards or Bell. Perhaps we will buy one as the pool of captains though good for the pre -early season team building has not worked out in crucial games.

[Susi]

I think Joel is a good strong player, but he's too easily wound up and retaliates to quickly.
Fielden does to, and once he's niggled it puts his game at risk.
I know Joel also reacts when Sam gets hit too and that often ends up costing us penalty wise.
Maybe he should have been dropped earlier in the season, but to do so now when we need strong forwards would not help imo.

[MIKE14]

I think Joel is a good strong player, but he's too easily wound up and retaliates to quickly.
Fielden does to, and once he's niggled it puts his game at risk.
.

Fielden and Joel is like comparing chalk and cheese when it comes to discipline. Fielden was one of a very few on Sunday who kept his composure and to me was easily our MOM. Fielden has found his mojo this year and fully deserved his 2 year deal.
Joel is too easily wound up and IMO I think we have enough about us to drop him Friday and still win.

[cpwigan]

I do not think Joel needs to be dropped but he needs to be told to curb his petulance. When John Monie was coaching Parra he told Ray Price, a legend, you either cut out the nonsense and conceding penalties or you lose the captaincy. He cut out the nonsense and stopped conceding as many penalties.

[MIKE14]

We will have Feka on Friday in the 17 on Friday , Hanson and Farell are more than capable 2nd rowers.
Not checked the stats but does Joels 100 go forward on Sunday (really??) take into account the penalties he conceded and damage to the team morale during the course of the game?
He needs to learn to control his temper or for all the talent he has it will never be realised - dropping him Friday should make him think about his failings and how he effects the team.

[MIKE14]

I think Joel is a good strong player, but he's too easily wound up and retaliates to quickly.
Fielden does to, and once he's niggled it puts his game at risk.
.

Fielden and Joel is like comparing chalk and cheese when it comes to discipline. Fielden was one of a very few on Sunday who kept his composure and to me was easily our MOM. Fielden has found his mojo this year and fully deserved his 2 year deal.
Joel is too easily wound up and IMO I think we have enough about us to drop him Friday and still win.

Which player do you think is good enough to replace Joel? Considering our pack was shown up to be way too small against Leeds would relying on Hansen, Farrell and Tuson to get the metres we need really be the best option? All three will tackle anything that moves all day long, but none of them are really capable of making more than 50-60 metres per game. Joel's average is close to 100.

In my opinion it would be wrong to drop Joel. He's conceded the penalty, he's faced the disciplinary and whilst he's been let off he's still faced his punishment. I imagine Madge and Wane will have had words with him about it. Why punish ourselves and damage our chances of winning?

We will beat KR on Fiday without Joel but we won't win the grand final without him. He needs to get used to being under pressure and deaing with it. He has lost the plot before this season and no doubt has been spoken to by Madge and Wayne - apparently to no affect. IMO it will be such a shock to Joel to be dropped he will be then be grateful to be picked for Leeds away and help to lead us to the GF and victory.