Re: Smith to Saints

[butt monkey]

We gave him away! A FREE transfer - with 2 years left on his contract

Sums up EXACTLY how highly rated and though of he was by those in charge of the club, despite claims to the contrary that those running the club said in public

[cpwigan]

I see what you mean CP, he has won international honours but mainly by a combination of being the best of a bad bunch of English scrum halves, being a non disruptive character and playing for a high profile club. Had he played for a club that had lower prestige and performed how he has for us would he have been selected internationally...?

I'm not saying he's poor, just that I'd expect and like to see a better player as our senior half back. Yes he has helped us win trophies, but at the same time we have had a number of occasions where we have been beaten in trophy winning positions. If we'd had a less predictable scrum half, those defeats would have been less likely in my opinion.

I think it's too simplistic to blame it all on Wane, if a "Bateman step" is a product of Bateman, then similarly Matty's lack of skill or choice to stay with the predictable should be a product of Matty and therefore he should take the blame for this. A senior half back sets the tone for the team's attacking play, and the best halves have the ability to catch the opposing team unaware by doing the unexpected. What I'm simply saying is that Smith doesn't do that.

At the same time does the coach have to take some responsibility, yes of course he should! That's why I'd like to see a more attacking "flair" player replacing Matty. While the coach sets the overall strategy for the team, an 80 minute game doesn't follow a set pattern and when defensive formations break down that's when the most creative players like Sam, Ratchford, Sandow, Thurston etc can make the biggest difference.

I see Matty leaving as an opportunity for us as a club to address this as an area where we are lacking at the moment

PEIL I think we agree virtually. Time and time again the attacking structures break down. The main reason they do not is when we have a player who can beat the line on his own. Smith is not that type of player. However, not many halfbacks are. Certainly ones available. Ironically and oddly and let's not derail this thread but Hampshire is a halfback with the skill. Wane has always selected Smith over ever other halfback available so the presumption must be that Wane has always until now been happy with Smith. Indeed, Smith is even in the leadership team.

As it stands under Wane; hooker and first receiver are frequently simply long passers with very few options in and around both players. So unless you can beat defenders silly like Williams sometimes does (lest we forget some Wigan fans argue he is greedy! I do not BTW) then hookers, first receivers have very little to work with. The only real play Wigan have isout wide hitting centrte/wing or SR, centre, wing where a Williams can throw a step in (Hampshire could do that too BTW IMO) I hate how Wigan play in possesion under Wane. It is mind numbingly boring and predictable unless a player has some magic. I do not think Smith leaving will change that! I am not gutted Smith is leaving but I also do not blame him and I think it will remain difficult for his replacement.

Not popular with some BUT Wane is clueless about possession full stop.

[pieaterinLeigh]

I agree that we agree pal!

Where I differ is that Wane is clueless on possession. If anything that is his biggest problem strategically. He is too wrapped up in keeping the ball and so avoids trying to play expansive rugby, hence too much one man up play.

When MM came in he changed the way that we played, we saw our halves and back line fluidly running planned and spontaneous plays that confused defensive lines with 2 and 3 phase piss offs and dummies that changed the angles that we attacked at. At that time we had Green and Finch linking in with too many centres, wingers and fullbacks to list, my issue is that we are too predictable and the person (on the field) who has been a constant since then is Matty. Our points difference this season is poor, partly because of a lack of tries and also less kicks converted ( a different issue although Matty is the first choice kicker)

Mundane first or second receiver balls to a prop or SR has made us very easy to defend against with big packs and big back lines as we saw versus Hull in the CC semi. When we are more expansive bigger teams struggle as we tire them out though the game even if we don't score early points, hence in previous seasons we have finished games much stronger due to playing against more tired legs.

Like him or not, Wane does a lot of things well. He is Wigan through and through and while I don't think he should be sacked, I wouldn't have a problem replacing him if there was a viable option who can stay for long enough to build and add to our structure positively. My question would be, who can or would do that? And will they stay for long enough to not just use Wigan as a stepping stone to a bigger NRL job?

One of Wane's limitations is that as a player who was a forward he doesn't understand well enough the intricacies of back line play. However, any coach can only play to the limitations of the personnel they have. He picked Matty in his team but as you said who was better in SL? Is there someone we can bring in with the foresight and knowledge to identify the right player who might be outside of Wane's box and then coach positive changes with a new halve andr existing players in place?

There's another thread at the moment talking about the need for a new back line coach, IMO I'd love to see someone progressive appointed who can help indentify a replacement for MAtty Smith who can reinvigorate how fluidly our backs interact with our halves and potentially scare the shit out of the SL next season. With Sam, Budge, Gelling, Dom and Ollie we have a real need to harness the scoring potential of our back 5 and the only way we can do that is to shift the emphasis of attack away from one man forward based play.

Simply put, if our senior half back just pops the ball up to a forward running off first receiver ( as Matty does) we may as well sell of that back Line talent pool and inflate IL's bank balance further. Given he looks like going, why not restructure our back line coaching and use Matty Smiths salary allocation to bring a replacement in who can make the most out of the best back 5 in Super league and start creating fear of how many points we can out on the board against teams again?

P.S. While I rate Rocky as a player, he's not what I'm thinking we need right now. I'd rather see Williams played with a more experienced player and if that means Rocky has to be moved in then sobeit.

[Owd Codger]

If Smith is going, I am only hoping that Williams is going to be moved to his proper position of Scrum Half!

[DaveO]

Be interesting to see how he goes under a different coach.

I am firmly in the "Wane Out" camp but the lack of creativity shown by Smith can't all be laid at Wane's tactically poor door.

We play split halves and when the ball goes left something might happen but when it goes right to Smith it rarely does. As a senior player he should have the spark to do something other than pass the ball along the line.

It's probably a combination of poor tactics and the players ability.

We won stuff with Smith playing so why when we did, did he not look as poor as has led to strong criticism this season? I don't think it's good enough to suggest he was hiding behind better players. He was an integral part of the team but the further back we go the better the team was at playing a set of tactics inherited from Madge. Attacking-wise the team has got progressively worse over recent seasons which is down to Wane but Smith has also not shown the ability to help the team rise up above the poor tactics.

[cpwigan]

If Smith is going, I am only hoping that Williams is going to be moved to his proper position of Scrum Half!

It is hard to say scrum half or stand off today when teams play with split half backs IMO.

[Wandering Warrior]

With neither Wigan or saints casting confirmation or denial on his leaving is this just sky reading the rumour mill on here and taking a punt?

[jao711]

MS has had to be 'it' for half a season when Williams was injured. When the opposition know you can only play to whichever side of the ruck MS was at, it becomes bloody hard work. Matty never complained, played for the people around him and has played with knocks this year that in years gone past and a squad with more options would have seen him take a week or two off. He also had no desire whatsoever to go to Saints and wanted to fulfil his contract at Wigan but has, in effect, been shown the door.

Im not a huge MS fan but I think it's clear that he is a good pro, a better player than this season has allowed him to be and the sort of player we'll miss next year because we'll struggle to keep Tommy on the pitch for 3 games in a row.

. Good post makes a change from some of the criticism.

[DaveO]

MS has had to be 'it' for half a season when Williams was injured. When the opposition know you can only play to whichever side of the ruck MS was at, it becomes bloody hard work.

I think that is just an excuse, Smith has played no differently regardless of the team we have had out and whether Williams has been injured or not.

As I said in another post we play split halves and if the ball goes left something different might happen and if it goes right, them it will be passed to the right from Smith.

He also had no desire whatsoever to go to Saints and wanted to fulfil his contract at Wigan but has, in effect, been shown the door.

By whom? Wane picks him week after week so despite some fans opinions the coach thinks he is good enough. So has IL intervened?

Makes me wonder because he can see as well as you or I the attack has been naff this season (and last for that matter). Is this and the signing of TL, IL's (and not Wane's) solution?

If so he is missing the fact Wane is ultimately responsible and despite my reservations in effect making Smith the scapegoat is at best only half the problem and unfair.

One thing that has led to Smith getting criticism is his erratic goal kicking and I think that is also unfair. Goal kicking has been an issue since Pat left and Wane has failed to address it. Giving it to Smith and then seeing the result isn't good enough but leaving it with Smith is Wane's failing here. Trouble is the fact Smith hasn't been so good at it has not done him any favours with fans.

Im not a huge MS fan but I think it's clear that he is a good pro, a better player than this season has allowed him to be and the sort of player we'll miss next year because we'll struggle to keep Tommy on the pitch for 3 games in a row.

TL is a risky signing at 31 but a typical IL one of recent years. Another "old boy" coming back.

[Nezza Faz]

MS has had to be 'it' for half a season when Williams was injured. When the opposition know you can only play to whichever side of the ruck MS was at, it becomes bloody hard work.

I think that is just an excuse, Smith has played no differently regardless of the team we have had out and whether Williams has been injured or not.

As I said in another post we play split halves and if the ball goes left something different might happen and if it goes right, them it will be passed to the right from Smith.

He also had no desire whatsoever to go to Saints and wanted to fulfil his contract at Wigan but has, in effect, been shown the door.

By whom? Wane picks him week after week so despite some fans opinions the coach thinks he is good enough. So has IL intervened?

Makes me wonder because he can see as well as you or I the attack has been naff this season (and last for that matter). Is this and the signing of TL, IL's (and not Wane's) solution?

If so he is missing the fact Wane is ultimately responsible and despite my reservations in effect making Smith the scapegoat is at best only half the problem and unfair.

One thing that has led to Smith getting criticism is his erratic goal kicking and I think that is also unfair. Goal kicking has been an issue since Pat left and Wane has failed to address it. Giving it to Smith and then seeing the result isn't good enough but leaving it with Smith is Wane's failing here. Trouble is the fact Smith hasn't been so good at it has not done him any favours with fans.

Im not a huge MS fan but I think it's clear that he is a good pro, a better player than this season has allowed him to be and the sort of player we'll miss next year because we'll struggle to keep Tommy on the pitch for 3 games in a row.

TL is a risky signing at 31 but a typical IL one of recent years. Another "old boy" coming back.

But since his return from injury, has been superb for the Warriors. He, Isaac Luke and Johnson in combo, are the main reason for their late season revival after TL's return.

I'd say his physique, strength, and style of play someway negate his age in years. So not too worried about any "old boy" tag, in his case.