Penalty Stats

[Karl Carpenter]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this topic. I have been able to obtain the following from a very reliable source and includes all matches played this season up to last Friday.

L.Moore: 6 matches, 4 won;
pens for, 31, against, 32;
6 again for, 9, against 6;
1 yellow card, 1 red.

Kendall: 6 matches, 5 won;
pens for, 30, against 39;
6 again for,12, against 14;
4 yellow cards and 1 red.

Smith: 6 matches all won;
Pens for, 32, against, 42;
6 again for,12, against, 5;
1 yellow card and 1 red.

A. Moore: 5 matches, 4 won;
pens for, 24, against, 25;
6 again for, 10, against 3;
4 yellow cards, no red.

Grant: 3 matches, 2 won;
pens for,16, against 21;
6 again for, 6, against 8;
1 yellow card, no red.

Vella: 3 matches all won;
pens for, 19, against, 26;
6 again for, 18, against 2;
1 yellow card, no red.

Thaler: 1 match won;
pens for 5, against 7;
6 again for, 2, against 0;
No cards.

Rush: 1 match won;
pens for, 3, against 5;
6 again for, 2, against, 1;
No cards.

Played 31, won 25;
penalties for, 160, against, 197;
6 again for, 71, against, 39;
12 yellow card and 3 red.

Penalty count; won 9; lost 21; equal 1; at home won 5, lost 9, equal 1.
6 again count; won 19; lost 9; equal 3.

[WIGIAN]

Interesting , seems teams focus on just wanting to slow us down and by giving 6 agains dont concede field position just an extra tackle or two. We get hammered on penalties and walk teams up field.

[moto748]

And that Thaler and Rush let the game flow much more than the others.

[Charriots Offiah]

Whats probably most interesting is 13% (22) of all our penalties this season where committed by Harry Smith

In fact he is the leading the penalty table for the league

Other members of the top 20 are Liam Farrell (15) and Brad O'Neill (12)

I know its not this simple but if you remove Harry's penalties alone we would drop from 1st to 4th in the league for penalties.

I say its interesting because you'd imagine if it was just to being close to the edge it would be bigger more aggressive players leading the way

I dont think refs are bias either way - i think there is in general poor standards but thats another matter

Which highlights the point that those pens aren't all pinching a bit on the ten metres, or staying in the tackle a second or two too long; dissent and petulance and stupid acts of foul play also come into it, and these are the ones that can and should be largely eliminated.

We should be pinching a bit on the 10 metres every game, referees rarely penalise for doing so.

[doc]

Considering Thaler is considered to be one of the top two refs how come he has only reffed us once when we are constantly in the big games?

[morley pie eater]

Thanks to everyone who replied to this topic. I have been able to obtain the following from a very reliable source and includes all matches played this season up to last Friday.

L.Moore: 6 matches, 4 won;
pens for, 31, against, 32;
6 again for, 9, against 6;
1 yellow card, 1 red.

Kendall: 6 matches, 5 won;
pens for, 30, against 39;
6 again for,12, against 14;
4 yellow cards and 1 red.

Smith: 6 matches all won;
Pens for, 32, against, 42;
6 again for,12, against, 5;
1 yellow card and 1 red.

A. Moore: 5 matches, 4 won;
pens for, 24, against, 25;
6 again for, 10, against 3;
4 yellow cards, no red.

Grant: 3 matches, 2 won;
pens for,16, against 21;
6 again for, 6, against 8;
1 yellow card, no red.

Vella: 3 matches all won;
pens for, 19, against, 26;
6 again for, 18, against 2;
1 yellow card, no red.

Thaler: 1 match won;
pens for 5, against 7;
6 again for, 2, against 0;
No cards.

Rush: 1 match won;
pens for, 3, against 5;
6 again for, 2, against, 1;
No cards.

Played 31, won 25;
penalties for, 160, against, 197;
6 again for, 71, against, 39;
12 yellow card and 3 red.

Penalty count; won 9; lost 21; equal 1; at home won 5, lost 9, equal 1.
6 again count; won 19; lost 9; equal 3.

Great post, Karl.

There are (at least) two ways of approaching it - Which refs are biased against us? or When do we concede more penalties?

Interpretation is also complicated by the problem of putting relative values on penalties, six again calls and red and yellow cards.

I'd also omit the refs we've only had once as not enough data to be significant.

Given these caveats, here goes:

I'd argue that we did best under Liam Moore. Pens were all but even, we got 50% more 6 again calls, and 2 cards in 6 games. Yet we lost one third of those games.

Compare with Kendall's matches: 30% more pens against us than for us. 17% more 6 agains went the wrong way, and 5 cards in 6 games. But we won 5 of them.

With Smith we won 100%, despite a 30% deficit on pens, though 6 against were heavily in our favour.

So it seems that penalty counts maybe don't affect results as much as people think - if anything, the evidence supports the idea that results are better when we get penalised more than the opposition. (Or the dirtier we play the more likely we are to win????)

Of course, none of this takes into account whether the opposition are weak or strong. But it hardly seems likely that we'd give away more penalties against Hull or London than Wire or Rovers.

It's a great talking point, though, and I'm sure there'll be a number of different interpretations to choose from

[Mike]

Considering Thaler is considered to be one of the top two refs how come he has only reffed us once when we are constantly in the big games?

Isn't he the head of refs now, and he only refs occasionally when they have allocation problems?

[lucky 13]

Just on the side of this how was the Hull KR incident at weekend not a red and how does it not warrant more games? That's Ellis for example and money is on three game minimum. Was the same with Hiku in the Semi with the elbow drop to the head... Similarly Smith got three for his. While Peter's moans and groans they have gotten away lightly several times. Same with Saints appealing what seems every decision most times successfully.
I don't think the refs are deliberate in what they do but subconscious bias plays a part in officiating. Also looking at stats the refs officiate differently which ties in to the consistency debate. When it's backed up by the disciplinary seemingly supporting rightly or wrongly the on field calls it confuses me even more seeing they have time to conclude on decisions from different panel view points.

[josie andrews]

Considering Thaler is considered to be one of the top two refs how come he has only reffed us once when we are constantly in the big games?

Isn't he the head of refs now, and he only refs occasionally when they have allocation problems?

No, Phil Bentham is the head of Referees.

Ben doesn’t do as much as the younger referees now, mainly video ref.

[morley pie eater]

Just on the side of this how was the Hull KR incident at weekend not a red and how does it not warrant more games? That's Ellis for example and money is on three game minimum. Was the same with Hiku in the Semi with the elbow drop to the head... Similarly Smith got three for his. While Peter's moans and groans they have gotten away lightly several times. Same with Saints appealing what seems every decision most times successfully.
I don't think the refs are deliberate in what they do but subconscious bias plays a part in officiating. Also looking at stats the refs officiate differently which ties in to the consistency debate. When it's backed up by the disciplinary seemingly supporting rightly or wrongly the on field calls it confuses me even more seeing they have time to conclude on decisions from different panel view points.

The stats do not show that refs officiate differently. That is your interpretation of the stats.
It's just possible that teams commit more fouls in some games than others.

If course it's common sense that there will be differences between individuals, and even differences between the same ref's performance on different days. Don't players have good and bad games too?

But none of this is indicated by the stats above I'm afraid.