Six again

[archiekeith]

There's a very illuminating thread on the RL Fans site started by Nicky K on this together with penalty count stats for/against Wigan compared to the rest of the league.

Yes cut down on them. Simple!

Your missing the point, its referring to how many pens Wigan get, not how many we give away (which is low).

Its a really good thread and some good work put in to create the tables etc.

My two penarth is that refs have a habit of evening up games, a classic example was v Hull in the CC - we were running away with it after 20 minutes - then the evening up kicked in. Added to which Salford have been tanked most weeks but win the penalty count - doesn't make sense and doesn't explain the low pen counts in Wigan games.

No. I mean what I say. It's good advice to all teams. Deny the ref's options of either team. Simple if you truly believe the refs are bent the games not worth watching!

[widdenoldboy]

Yes cut down on them. Simple!

Your missing the point, its referring to how many pens Wigan get, not how many we give away (which is low).

Its a really good thread and some good work put in to create the tables etc.

My two penarth is that refs have a habit of evening up games, a classic example was v Hull in the CC - we were running away with it after 20 minutes - then the evening up kicked in. Added to which Salford have been tanked most weeks but win the penalty count - doesn't make sense and doesn't explain the low pen counts in Wigan games.

No. I mean what I say. It's good advice to all teams. Deny the ref's options of either team. Simple if you truly believe the refs are bent the games not worth watching!

We agree to differ and thats fine but I don't get you bringing "refs are bent" into the chat - its based on stats and its interesting to find out what is going on but we can not cut down on penalties given to us, that doesn't make sense?

[the pieman]

Your missing the point, its referring to how many pens Wigan get, not how many we give away (which is low).

Its a really good thread and some good work put in to create the tables etc.

My two penarth is that refs have a habit of evening up games, a classic example was v Hull in the CC - we were running away with it after 20 minutes - then the evening up kicked in. Added to which Salford have been tanked most weeks but win the penalty count - doesn't make sense and doesn't explain the low pen counts in Wigan games.

No. I mean what I say. It's good advice to all teams. Deny the ref's options of either team. Simple if you truly believe the refs are bent the games not worth watching!

We agree to differ and thats fine but I don't get you bringing "refs are bent" into the chat - its based on stats and its interesting to find out what is going on but we can not cut down on penalties given to us, that doesn't make sense?

i agree Widdenoldboy, there isnt one person on the thread(s) about penalties who have claimed refs are bent. The stats in regards to Wigan games are interesting, and has left most querying why our games appear to be refereed differently to others as we have given away and also received the least number of penalties.

For ArchieKeith' purpose, an example of what has been discussed have been Salford, who have given away an average of 9 penalties per game, but against Wigan only conceded 3 (cant remember the exact number but using to illustrate the discussion). Then the week after it was back to 9. In games where Wigan have been dominant, we have often ended up on the wrong side of a penalty count (and repeat sets). Normally i think most would agree that a dominant side, would generally receive more penalties, especially if the opposition are defending more, and ultimately tire towards the end of a game

so the question was, are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games? The stats suggest yes. I think we all want games where we don't notice the referee cos he's blowing constantly, and to your point, yes the teams shouldn't give the ref the opportunity to penalise them, but equally is there inconsistency during a game or in different games

[archiekeith]

No. I mean what I say. It's good advice to all teams. Deny the ref's options of either team. Simple if you truly believe the refs are bent the games not worth watching!

We agree to differ and thats fine but I don't get you bringing "refs are bent" into the chat - its based on stats and its interesting to find out what is going on but we can not cut down on penalties given to us, that doesn't make sense?

i agree Widdenoldboy, there isnt one person on the thread(s) about penalties who have claimed refs are bent. The stats in regards to Wigan games are interesting, and has left most querying why our games appear to be refereed differently to others as we have given away and also received the least number of penalties.

For ArchieKeith' purpose, an example of what has been discussed have been Salford, who have given away an average of 9 penalties per game, but against Wigan only conceded 3 (cant remember the exact number but using to illustrate the discussion). Then the week after it was back to 9. In games where Wigan have been dominant, we have often ended up on the wrong side of a penalty count (and repeat sets). Normally i think most would agree that a dominant side, would generally receive more penalties, especially if the opposition are defending more, and ultimately tire towards the end of a game

so the question was, are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games? The stats suggest yes. I think we all want games where we don't notice the referee cos he's blowing constantly, and to your point, yes the teams shouldn't give the ref the opportunity to penalise them, but equally is there inconsistency during a game or in different games

""Are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games?the stats suggest yes"
Make of that what you will. However if the ref calls every breach of the rules that incur a penalty award correctly then it makes sense not to give him the opportunity to award one. Simple. If however he ignores any noticed breach for which he could have correctly given a penalty then he is being inconsistent this seems untoward to me and unprofessional. So the point is play by the rules and thereby incur no orrectly given penalties. Seems obvious to me!

[endoman]

We agree to differ and thats fine but I don't get you bringing "refs are bent" into the chat - its based on stats and its interesting to find out what is going on but we can not cut down on penalties given to us, that doesn't make sense?

i agree Widdenoldboy, there isnt one person on the thread(s) about penalties who have claimed refs are bent. The stats in regards to Wigan games are interesting, and has left most querying why our games appear to be refereed differently to others as we have given away and also received the least number of penalties.

For ArchieKeith' purpose, an example of what has been discussed have been Salford, who have given away an average of 9 penalties per game, but against Wigan only conceded 3 (cant remember the exact number but using to illustrate the discussion). Then the week after it was back to 9. In games where Wigan have been dominant, we have often ended up on the wrong side of a penalty count (and repeat sets). Normally i think most would agree that a dominant side, would generally receive more penalties, especially if the opposition are defending more, and ultimately tire towards the end of a game

so the question was, are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games? The stats suggest yes. I think we all want games where we don't notice the referee cos he's blowing constantly, and to your point, yes the teams shouldn't give the ref the opportunity to penalise them, but equally is there inconsistency during a game or in different games

""Are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games?the stats suggest yes"
Make of that what you will. However if the ref calls every breach of the rules that incur a penalty award correctly then it makes sense not to give him the opportunity to award one. Simple. If however he ignores any noticed breach for which he could have correctly given a penalty then he is being inconsistent this seems untoward to me and unprofessional. So the point is play by the rules and thereby incur no orrectly given penalties. Seems obvious to me!

The number of penalties given away by Wigan is not the issue, we are the lowest, it's that over the entire season other teams are not being penalised when playing against Wigan to anything like the degree they are in other games. Read it all again.... It makes it hard when you aren't getting piggy backed up the field with 6 agains or penalties.

[NICKYKISS]

As things stand, we've had 18 penalties all season. Saints have had 44. I believe we lost the 6 agains 3-0 on Good Friday, 3-1 at HKR and it was 3-0 at Leeds recently as well. We're the least penalised side in the league on 31 but that shouldn't really impact what you get and what we get is not a lot, to say the least! To think that teams generally get penalised more when they're on the back foot and playing against better sides, you would think teams would be struggling to stay disciplined against us but it's anything but. Most sides are having comfortably their best disciplinary performance of the season against us.

What I will say is that I'm not accusing refs of being corrupt or anything of that nature, I just think a number of factors are leading to what is happening. I think we have a rep for slowing games down and it's leading to opposition sides being given a bit of a free reign the over way. I also think all the moaning across the game about 'Wigan refs' have taken a toil. Opposition sides will laugh but I also think the players are a pretty honest bunch and I don't see the screaming and whining for penalties with a lot of our lads that you get from the likes of Walmsley and some of the KR players. Peet is also not one in public to go at refs and if you don't ask, you don't get most of the time.

[morley pie eater]

Just a wee look at the subject from a different viewpoint, if I may?

Of themselves, stats prove nothing: they give some evidence from which we may try to deduce something. As often as not, people use stats to try to "prove" something they believed to be true before they saw the data - I think it's called "a priori" reasoning.

Anyway, on a simple basis that Wigan are awarded less penalties and concede less penalties than others, I could argue that we play to the rules more, and as a consequence other teams are less provoked into conceding penalties when they play us.

Before anyone assumes I believe this, I'll add another possibility: maybe the "tea ladies" at Wigan are so nice to visiting refs, and give them extra biscuits with their lovely cuppas, that the refs at our games are in a much kinder frame of mind???

[Mike]

I'd say its because matches involving Wigan have a big-game "playoff atmosphere". In the playoffs the refs tend to put away their whistles for some reason. Maybe its because its a big game and they subconsciously don't want to be a big factor in the outcome. I'm not sure, but the playoffs are always reffed to a different standard every year, and the GF is the most obvious. You can go almost the whole game some years with no pens.

[the pieman]

We agree to differ and thats fine but I don't get you bringing "refs are bent" into the chat - its based on stats and its interesting to find out what is going on but we can not cut down on penalties given to us, that doesn't make sense?

i agree Widdenoldboy, there isnt one person on the thread(s) about penalties who have claimed refs are bent. The stats in regards to Wigan games are interesting, and has left most querying why our games appear to be refereed differently to others as we have given away and also received the least number of penalties.

For ArchieKeith' purpose, an example of what has been discussed have been Salford, who have given away an average of 9 penalties per game, but against Wigan only conceded 3 (cant remember the exact number but using to illustrate the discussion). Then the week after it was back to 9. In games where Wigan have been dominant, we have often ended up on the wrong side of a penalty count (and repeat sets). Normally i think most would agree that a dominant side, would generally receive more penalties, especially if the opposition are defending more, and ultimately tire towards the end of a game

so the question was, are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games? The stats suggest yes. I think we all want games where we don't notice the referee cos he's blowing constantly, and to your point, yes the teams shouldn't give the ref the opportunity to penalise them, but equally is there inconsistency during a game or in different games

""Are games in which Wigan play being refereed differently to other games?the stats suggest yes"
Make of that what you will. However if the ref calls every breach of the rules that incur a penalty award correctly then it makes sense not to give him the opportunity to award one. Simple. If however he ignores any noticed breach for which he could have correctly given a penalty then he is being inconsistent this seems untoward to me and unprofessional. So the point is play by the rules and thereby incur no orrectly given penalties. Seems obvious to me!

do you not think thats a very simplistic view though? How many players at the play of the ball are trying to milk penalties (Wigan players included), trying to get a quick play of the ball? How often do they get the penalties when the defending team havent actually done anything wrong?

How many times can a player not get back onside at the play of the ball? As the game goes on and fatigue sets in, it is likely that this will increase. I'd suggest our players are some of the fittest in the competition, but we were penalised for being offside on Friday, Saints not once (apart from an accidental one), and i can tell you that Percival as offside quite regularly. I dont for one think Wigan are squeaky clean in regards to offences, but when we are dominating games, and still getting less penalties than the opposition makes you question why?

As i suggested in my earlier post, this is far from a "the ref's are bent, biased or against Wigan", but when you look at the stats of our games v every other game played by other teams this season, you cant deny that they look different. How do Salford go from conceding an average of 9 per game, then play Wigan who won the game at a canter, and only concede 3? That suggests that from game to game the refs are treating them differently

i'm all for not seeing the ref, and there being no penalties (or very few), but at the same time there needs to be consistency within a game / across games

[the pieman]

I'd say its because matches involving Wigan have a big-game "playoff atmosphere". In the playoffs the refs tend to put away their whistles for some reason. Maybe its because its a big game and they subconsciously don't want to be a big factor in the outcome. I'm not sure, but the playoffs are always reffed to a different standard every year, and the GF is the most obvious. You can go almost the whole game some years with no pens.

i'd agree with your comment re play-offs, and i reckon most fans would be happy with all games refereed in the same way